Dan Detweiler
Active Member
I tend to think of being kind of transgender when it comes to politics. I'll chose how I identify myself on a daily basis. LOL!
Dan
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Elon Musk vs. Short sellers
- Thread starter jesselivenomore
- Start date
Dan
jhm
Well-Known Member
There was a time when the oil industry was engaged in a PR war against biofuels. A strategy document got released that detailed how they were targeting global hunger and certain environmental advocacy groups to carry anti-biofuel messages to progressives. These vectors did not always know that they had become vectors for a complex PR campaign. Global hunger advocates could quite sincerely go on about how morally awful it was to turn food into fuel for automobiles driven by first worlders while people in the third world starved. This was powerful propaganda, and many of the carriers had no idea how the oil industry had been scheming and misleading them into carrying such messages.
So be careful about well meaning progressive activists who are carrying anti-EV and anti-Elon messages. There is a ton of propaganda work done in the background to exploit the social and political values of these activists to get it to carry an anti-Elon message. For example, the labor unions have been deployed to prey upon sympathies that some progressives have with labor. Painting Musk as a union busters is straight up propaganda targeted at liberals. Allegations of sexism and racism in silicon valley and within Tesla employment is straight up propaganda aimed at progressives with valid concern for women and minorities. Attacking Musk for making nominal contributions to Republicans (which is not news and ignore contributions to Democrats as well) is straight up propaganda targeting Democrats. We could go on and on. The point is that an awful lot of anti-Elon propaganda is calibrated to outrage liberals and progressives and to enlist these good people to be carriers of the propaganda. Putting out podcasts is actually a low cost way to deliver targeted propaganda to its intended recipients.
Remember that this is an all out war. The goal is to get everyone to hate on Elon so as to shut him down. So whatever button you've got that can be pushed. They will have lines of strategy in place to push those buttons. They will try to turn you into a carrier of their propaganda, and if that is not possible, they will try to tear you down. Those of us who support Tesla's mission are their enemies. They will try to attack us and neutralize us from every angle conceivable. They will try to turn our friends against us.
jhm
Well-Known Member
I don't have a problem with identifying my politics. But in this case I was not really making a political point at all. I was pointing to the Deplorables as an example of a coordinated social media trolling operation. Many of us in the US had first hand encounters with these agents. I certainly had beenntreatened by them. Perhaps you were a fortunate one not to have been harassed by them. But for those of us who were, it is a potent example of how a trolling operation works.
OMG, that NYP article does take the cake. It is so far off base about everything! Bashing Elon’s because his rockets blow up and that he made a blooper reel about it? Saying that Elon hasn’t achieved anything? Saying that Tesla has already lost the EV market?
This article is so nuts that it actually has to be a joke. She probably meant to post it on the Onion. I hope Elon doesn’t respond to it. Anyone with half of brain would realize how nuts the author is. But of course she did call Chanos a “star investor”.
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Jevi_S85D
Member
"Your post in the thread Elon Musk vs. Short sellers was deleted. Reason: There's another thread for this... I don't have time to move misplaced posts any more."
I thought it was good and insightful - why deleted - which thread. Definitely not misplaced. What is going on ? Who deleted it ? Is this forum being infiltrated by shorts ?
I thought it was good and insightful - why deleted - which thread. Definitely not misplaced. What is going on ? Who deleted it ? Is this forum being infiltrated by shorts ?
Mostly twitter bots. Yes there is other means but I think twitter is the main vector.
The overwhelming effect of the existence of twitter is negative.
Mod: it was a post about the tweetstorm and insults related to the thai rescue. Here is the thread for that. Elon Tweeting about Thailand and Reputation . 22 pages of discussion, your post added nothing. I deleted it. Yes, the forum is being invaded by shorts. They get a well reasoned say too. Since you are new and asked, I undeleted it and moved it there. --ggr.
Yep,” iit adds nothing new” so comment was deleted....and the mentioned thread was locked. Just happens to be a pretty negative thread about the tesla. Scroll through and try to find another locked thread. Might as welll lock the threads that show pics of production model 3’s until they release a new colour. Same reasoning, no? After all, it’s all been seen and said.
It a shame how the conversation is literally being censored.
Dan Detweiler
Active Member
SebastianR
Active Member
I appreciate everything @jhm writes about. And I would like to offer a different perspective on the below:
I agree with @jhm that some folks on the "other" side would think like that. But I refuse to think of the "all out war" logic. Here is why: in war, the goal is to annihilate the enemy. In war, ordinary citizen become cold blooded murderers, in war you stop thinking and everyone who is not with you, is against you (I believe that's what a US president once said...).
I refuse this logic of war. I will not stop being considerate, reflective and independently thinking. I will not mindlessly cheer for the home-team.
Don't get me wrong: I have no sympathy for the shorts, I find their shenanigans horrendous and I find the never ending mindless debates tiring and obnoxious. (I also find their complaints about censorship on sites like this silly and ridiculous).
The shorts are raging. There is harassment, lying, swearing and bullying. In short - they want to enrage me, us and themselves. But just as I'm not forced to accept any gift from anyone let alone a stranger, I will not accept the gift of outrage and war mongering from the shorts. I will calmly continue to educate about Tesla the company, the vision, the cars. The rest is just noise.
I agree with @jhm that some folks on the "other" side would think like that. But I refuse to think of the "all out war" logic. Here is why: in war, the goal is to annihilate the enemy. In war, ordinary citizen become cold blooded murderers, in war you stop thinking and everyone who is not with you, is against you (I believe that's what a US president once said...).
I refuse this logic of war. I will not stop being considerate, reflective and independently thinking. I will not mindlessly cheer for the home-team.
Don't get me wrong: I have no sympathy for the shorts, I find their shenanigans horrendous and I find the never ending mindless debates tiring and obnoxious. (I also find their complaints about censorship on sites like this silly and ridiculous).
The shorts are raging. There is harassment, lying, swearing and bullying. In short - they want to enrage me, us and themselves. But just as I'm not forced to accept any gift from anyone let alone a stranger, I will not accept the gift of outrage and war mongering from the shorts. I will calmly continue to educate about Tesla the company, the vision, the cars. The rest is just noise.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
It's war. Individuals may choose how they want to participate but it's definitely a war, and has been from the beginning.
Well, Elon also runs an AI company if I'm not mistaken. Couldn't he use that as a counter-force ?
Let loose open-AI against the twitter mob and see if thats is the next area where humans get beaten by AI after Go and video-games
jhm
Well-Known Member
I agree. Let me clarify.
I believe this is an asymmetrical conflict. It is a propaganda war on one side that must sow disinformation to advance its cause. But on the other side, it is simply a struggle for a company to bring good products to market and execute on a worthwhile vision. So disinformation and harassment strategies do not serve this side of the conflict.
And we need to be very careful not to be baited into falling into trolling tactics. This was seen clearly when Musk was baited into making his "pedo guy" comment. This was a huge trolling success to get Musk to stop to that level.
All of us who support Musk and the Tesla mission need to stay on the moral high road. We cannot respond to trolling in kind. We fight disinformation with verifiable facts. While the predatory shorts may feel a need to annihilate all confidence in Mus and Tesla, supporters do not need to annihilate all Tesla foes. Rather it is sufficient for there to be enough product buyers and enough investors to keep the company moving forward. Not everyone needs to be a fanboy. The mission need just a certain amount of support to keep going. As Tesla brings great products to market and generates solid cash flow, there will be little that any enemy can do to stop it. Really I think we are quite close to a key turning point, and this is why the shorts are so desparate to bring Tesla down while they have a chance to do so. For the enemies of Tesla this is all out war, but for friends of Tesla this is merely a struggle to persevere as Tesla becomes stronger.
jhm
Well-Known Member
It's asymmetrical conflict. You can't use the same trolling techniques to beat trolling. That simply makes all social media uninhabitable by humans, which is pretty much one of the objectives of trolling. So counter-trolling technology could be helpful, but it needs to be based on a well considered strategy, and not simply devolve into troll versus troll.Well, Elon also runs an AI company if I'm not mistaken. Couldn't he use that as a counter-force ?
Let loose open-AI against the twitter mob and see if thats is the next area where humans get beaten by AI after Go and video-games
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
The last time an AI was let loose on social media it became an evil troll.
jhm
Well-Known Member
Perhaps it would be good for us to discuss counter-strategies.
As I've pointed out, journalists are prime targets for manipulation. Trolls will harass them one way or another to bias journalists against Tesla. What can we do to counteract this?
I've got a few ideas, but I'd like to hear from others first.
As I've pointed out, journalists are prime targets for manipulation. Trolls will harass them one way or another to bias journalists against Tesla. What can we do to counteract this?
I've got a few ideas, but I'd like to hear from others first.
Krugerrand
Meow
The only way to counter bad behavior, and that’s really what we’re talking about here, is through consequences. As long as there are no consequences for ie., Mr. S and those of his ilk, they will continue as they have nothing to lose.
Well, you can say that again. I think everyone who is classically conservative is now considered politically "liberal", because you have to be a sort of cultist who denies reality to support the Republican party line now -- outright rejecting science on pretty much everything, not just global warming and evolution and sex education, but now things like lead poisoning.
This is why I'm a big fan of ostracism for ordinary trolling.
And for actual threats of violence, it's necessary to get these people arrested, handcuffed, and thrown in prison -- if the police won't track down and arrest people who make violent threats, maybe private investigators can do it, and maybe private security can get them cuffed. People who make threats online are *mostly* just loudmouths, but *some* of them have actually killed people, so it should be treated just like an in-person threat and result in a criminal record. I'm not sure what we can do to make that happen but I'd donate to a private charitable foundation devoted to tracking down, exposing, and prosecuting people who make actual rape threats online.
Given how vicious some of the shorts are in spreading lies and the zeal they have to kill the company, I have a suspicion that at the height of desperation it is not beyond them to embark on to the next step - criminal activities.
I am not talking about white collar crimes like what Tripp did. That is just the first salvo. I am worried about physical damage to the factory, employees or the man.
One such incident is enough to stop production for weeks, instill fear in employees for their lives and safety. Even if the perpetrator is caught days or weeks after, the damage is done and the shorts would have made big bucks.
I am not talking about white collar crimes like what Tripp did. That is just the first salvo. I am worried about physical damage to the factory, employees or the man.
One such incident is enough to stop production for weeks, instill fear in employees for their lives and safety. Even if the perpetrator is caught days or weeks after, the damage is done and the shorts would have made big bucks.
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