Elon Musk

[ohmman]

Elon Musk donated roughly $5.7 billion worth of Tesla Inc. shares to charity last year, according to a securities filing Monday, making him by at least one measure one of last year’s top philanthropic donors.

The filing doesn’t name recipients for the 5,044,000 Tesla shares that Mr. Musk reported donating over the course of more than a week in November. Mr. Musk, Tesla’s chief executive and the world’s wealthiest person, didn’t respond to a request for comment.

Elon Musk Gave $5.7 Billion of Tesla Shares to Charity Last Year — The Wall Street Journal

Electric-vehicle maker’s chief executive made donations in the middle of a series of stock sales

apple.news

 

[wdolson]

There is a perception among quite a few people that all rich people are jerks and if there is any room for interpretation in a rich person's behavior, it's always the worst possible explanation.

Some rich people are jerks. Most have had money their entire lives or made their money to keep score vs other people. Entrepreneurs generally didn't do it for the money. I'm sure they are fine with being rich, but it's not their reason for existence. A number of entrepreneur rich are working to give away their wealth as they get older.

 

[FlatSix911]

Elon Musk donated roughly $5.7 billion worth of Tesla Inc. shares to charity last year, according to a securities filing Monday, making him by at least one measure one of last year’s top philanthropic donors.

The filing doesn’t name recipients for the 5,044,000 Tesla shares that Mr. Musk reported donating over the course of more than a week in November. Mr. Musk, Tesla’s chief executive and the world’s wealthiest person, didn’t respond to a request for comment.

Elon Musk Gave $5.7 Billion of Tesla Shares to Charity Last Year — The Wall Street Journal

Electric-vehicle maker’s chief executive made donations in the middle of a series of stock sales

apple.news

Here is a bit of speculation on the recipient of Elon's donation to help end global hunger.

Elon Musk might have actually followed through with 'world hunger-ending donation' as Tesla reveals he donated billions in shares

Elon Musk might have actually followed through with the supposedly “world hunger-ending donation” that he questioned last year as Tesla...

electrek.co

"Now a few months later, Tesla has released a new SEC filing on Valentine’s Day revealing that Musk donated just over 5 million shares worth close to $6 billion at the end of November. The filing doesn’t reveal the recipient of the money, but the WFP is suspected to be the recipient due to the amount and the timing. The NYTimes posits it might also be a tax dodge and might be to his own foundation which Musk controls. Neither Musk or the WFP have commented on the situation."

 

[TheGroove]

"Now a few months later, Tesla has released a new SEC filing on Valentine’s Day revealing that Musk donated just over 5 million shares worth close to $6 billion at the end of November. The filing doesn’t reveal the recipient of the money, but the WFP is suspected to be the recipient due to the amount and the timing. The NYTimes posits it might also be a tax dodge and might be to his own foundation which Musk controls. Neither Musk or the WFP have commented on the situation."

And as a result will pay zero dollars in federal taxes.

 

[Cosmacelf]

And as a result will pay zero dollars in federal taxes.

Um, you know that for sure?

 

[ohmman]

And as a result will pay zero dollars in federal taxes.

Very unlikely. If his tax bill is approximately $11 billion for 2021, a $5 billion charitable gift will not remotely offset it. Charitable giving doesn't get subtracted from your tax bill, it gets subtracted from AGI. Also, charitable donations are capped at 50% of total AGI, and for private foundations like his own that you highlighted, the limit is even smaller, at 30%.

Paying zero dollars in federal taxes is extremely difficult, if not impossible in Elon's 2021 situation. But I'd love to see your math if I'm wrong.

 

[jabloomf1230]

Very unlikely. If his tax bill is approximately $11 billion for 2021, a $5 billion charitable gift will not remotely offset it. Charitable giving doesn't get subtracted from your tax bill, it gets subtracted from AGI. Also, charitable donations are capped at 50% of total AGI, and for private foundations like his own that you highlighted, the limit is even smaller, at 30%.

Paying zero dollars in federal taxes is extremely difficult, if not impossible in Elon's 2021 situation. But I'd love to see your math if I'm wrong.

Corporations can pay zero taxes under the right circumstances but it's virtually impossible for a wealthy individual to do so.

 

[kabin]

Elon was doing pretty well avoiding income tax by not receiving an income and instead taking out loans against his TSLA stock options.

 

[ohmman]

Elon was doing pretty well avoiding income tax by not receiving an income and instead taking out loans against his TSLA stock options.

That's not avoiding income tax, though, because he's not realizing any income. He will eventually have to realize that income and pay taxes. It's different than, say, exercising options and somehow taking an offsetting loss that isn't really a loss. Real estate makes it much easier to do that kind of thing, but in Elon's situation I wouldn't draw the parallel. It would be better described as deferring taxes. Deferring taxes makes sense for many people who might be in a lower tax bracket during retirement, but I don't think that's part of Elon's future.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

That's not avoiding income tax, though, because he's not realizing any income. He will eventually have to realize that income and pay taxes. It's different than, say, exercising options and somehow taking an offsetting loss that isn't really a loss. Real estate makes it much easier to do that kind of thing, but in Elon's situation I wouldn't draw the parallel. It would be better described as deferring taxes. Deferring taxes makes sense for many people who might be in a lower tax bracket during retirement, but I don't think that's part of Elon's future.

If somebody borrows against shares they are realizing the value.
Same with borrowing against the increased value of property.

It's a pretty obvious loophole to be closed.

 

[ohmman]

If somebody borrows against shares they are realizing the value.
Same with borrowing against the increased value of property.

I am using the word "realize" in the financial sense, which means to sell an asset.

Lending is always about borrowing against something - potential value, current value, etc. You appear to be advocating for an entirely different approach to lending and taxation than any of which I'm aware. In every economic system I know, loans are not considered income because they must be repaid. I don't think I understand your definition since the world operates on lending.

 

[spacerfc]

I like Elon. Not sure what all of the hate is about. He's not perfect, but who is. I have a friend that's a hater, but I'm not sure how to respond to this viewpoint. I don't really know much about Starlink. Are the satellites really ruining the night sky? I'm hoping one of the more well informed, and more intelligent than me, can help me with a rebuttal. Here's a quote from a recent text:

"Elon... he's an ass who launched a bunch of satellites that could've been camouflaged but couldn't be bothered.

The vast majority of people who never get their fat asses outside of the city or don't care because they don't know what stars look like; as long as it doesn't interfere with their screen time. But if you like to star gaze under dark skies (eastern Oregon has some of the darkest skies in the world…) he really screwed it up. Then when he got called out on it he fixed it for the next time (and made sure to let everybody know he would do it but he didn't have to) but it's too late for the big ugly ones that are up in the sky. He's a jack ass. I know he probably had partially good intentions to bring broadband to everybody but he's just gross."

This is a complicated technical topic, way to complicated to explain in a single post. But let me try (I can add sources, but I'm too lazy to look all of them up, I can if you need them):
1. "could've been camouflaged but couldn't be bothered": SpaceX didn't realize the satellites would be so bright, neither did astronomers, so it's pretty safe to say Elon Musk didn't know it would be so bright before the launch either.
2. "he really screwed it up. Then when he got called out on it he fixed it for the next time (and made sure to let everybody know he would do it but he didn't have to) but it's too late for the big ugly ones that are up in the sky.": Technically true, but doesn't matter. They added sunshade ("visor") to all satellites after L9, so there're about 9 * 60 = 540 satellites without sunshade. But this doesn't matter because: a. A lot of the early satellites are retired already, for example the entire batch of 60 v0.9 satellites all re-entered already; b. For those are not retired, they will be after 5 years; c. The # of satellites without sunshade is small enough they won't affect astronomy or the night sky significantly.
3. Almost all the astronomers working on this issue praised or at least recognizes SpaceX is spending considerable engineering effort in mitigate this brightness issue, they're very responsive to astronomers' complaints.
4. SpaceX lowered Starlink's orbit from the original 1,200km to 550km, this move is one of the reasons that the satellite appears to be bright to the naked eye, however this move is very good in terms of space debris mitigation, it is also very good for minimizing impact to astronomy, since one of the most important recommendations from astronomers is to put the constellation below 600km.

 

[30seconds]

He can be such an ass sometimes

 

[FlatSix911]

Elon has a valid point to make here.

Elon Musk, Tesla attack SEC for 'unrelenting' harassment

Tesla Inc and its Chief Executive Elon Musk on Thursday accused the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) of harassing them with an "endless" and "unrelenting" investigation to punish Musk for being an outspoken critic of the government.

www.reuters.com

"NEW YORK, Feb 17 (Reuters) - Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) and its Chief Executive Elon Musk on Thursday accused the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) of harassing them with an "endless" and "unrelenting" investigation to punish Musk for being an outspoken critic of the government.

The accusation came in a letter to U.S. District Judge Alison Nathan in Manhattan, who presided over a 2018 SEC settlement stemming from Musk's tweet about a potential buyout of Tesla. "Mr. Musk and Tesla respectfully seek a course correction," wrote Alex Spiro, a lawyer for Musk and Tesla. "Enough is enough." The SEC declined to comment. Thursday's letter escalates Musk's battle with regulators as they scrutinize his social media posts and Tesla's treatment of workers, including accusations of discrimination. It followed Tesla's disclosure on Feb. 7 that it had receiving a subpoena from the SEC about its compliance with the 2018 settlement. "

 

[hokiefan]

I'm just one owner / stock holder, but I'm done with Elon. He is going way too far down the conspiracy rabbit hole. He just won't put down the twitter device. Stock is sold and I'll drive the car until it needs something major, like all my previous cars before it. Won't be looking at Tesla for my next car for sure.

If v11 is a look of things to come with the UI, thats just another data point towards looking elsewhere.

EDIT: My post was edited by a moderator removing a link to an article about Elon Musk's tweet comparing the PM of Canada to Adolf Hitler. Here is another link to an article from a "non political" website:

Elon Musk Tweets Meme Comparing Justin Trudeau to Adolf Hitler

The 50-year-old billionaire often shitposts more like an edgy preteen than the wealthiest person on the planet.

gizmodo.com

FYI the tweet has been removed, probably because it was a really dumb thing to post. But he still posted it!

 

[kabin]

That's not avoiding income tax, though, because he's not realizing any income. He will eventually have to realize that income and pay taxes. It's different than, say, exercising options and somehow taking an offsetting loss that isn't really a loss. Real estate makes it much easier to do that kind of thing, but in Elon's situation I wouldn't draw the parallel. It would be better described as deferring taxes. Deferring taxes makes sense for many people who might be in a lower tax bracket during retirement, but I don't think that's part of Elon's future.

There's a loophole and he reportedly was using it. It's a loan on unexercised options. As long as he doesn't exercise the option and either Tesla or a bank is willing to give him a loan he gets cash and doesn't pay the IRS anything. It's a low risk for the lender since the options are priced well below TSLA's current stock price and Musk is worth a few hundred billion. No smoke and mirrors.

Similar to a reverse mortgage loan the IRS receives nothing from the loan payment.

 

[ohmman]

There's a loophole and he reportedly was using it. It's a loan on unexercised options. As long as he doesn't exercise the option and either Tesla or a bank is willing to give him a loan he gets cash and doesn't pay the IRS anything. It's a low risk for the lender since the options are priced well below TSLA's current stock price and Musk is worth a few hundred billion. No smoke and mirrors.

Similar to a reverse mortgage loan the IRS receives nothing from the loan payment.

I still don't understand how this is a "loophole" and not just a loan. Loans aren't income, they have to be repaid. Every loan is backed by something - in many cases merely the promise of something that doesn't even currently exist. If Joe Schmoe starts a business with a small business loan, he shows his business plan to the bank and gets approved (or denied) based on the bank's estimated likelihood of Joe being able to pay them back with interest. Joe doesn't have to pay taxes on the amount of the loan (nobody ever does, unless the loan is a forgiven loan), and it's not remotely a loophole.

Regarding loans against options, those options either have to expire, making the owner devoid of any of their value and having to pay back the loan taken against them, or they have to be exercised, in which case taxes are paid on that income and the loan is paid back. The taxes are the same. Loans are money in/money out.

If someone can explicitly explain why claims such as "doesn't have to pay taxes" or "avoiding taxes with loans" makes sense in financial terms, I'm all ears and eager to learn more. But I get the feeling that people are letting their opinions of Elon taint their judgement of legitimate and logical financial transactions. Would you say that Joe Schmoe is avoiding taxes? Because I don't see the difference from a transactional viewpoint.

 

[chinney]

Musk is a talented and hardworking engineer and manager with real vision who has done a lot to making practical electric motoring a reality. At the same time, he is increasingly unstable and misguided in both his corporate and operational decision-making and his publicly-expressed personal views. So many recent Tesla decisions made at his initiative, or apparently with his approval, are bone-headed. As much as Musk has done to get the EV project this far, I think that Tesla might be better off continuing on without him.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I still don't understand how this is a "loophole" and not just a loan. Loans aren't income, they have to be repaid. Every loan is backed by something - in many cases merely the promise of something that doesn't even currently exist. If Joe Schmoe starts a business with a small business loan, he shows his business plan to the bank and gets approved (or denied) based on the bank's estimated likelihood of Joe being able to pay them back with interest. Joe doesn't have to pay taxes on the amount of the loan (nobody ever does, unless the loan is a forgiven loan), and it's not remotely a loophole.

No, loans aren't all backed. Secured loans are backed.

Anyway, he wouldn't be paying tax on the loan. He'd be paying tax on the shares.

The key issue is that he's using the value of the shares to get money, which should be counted as realizing their value, just as if he'd sold the shares.

The transaction should be considered the same as exercising options, and then selling the shares with an agreement to buy them back over a period of time.

Same should apply to re-mortgaging property.

 

[ohmman]

The key issue is that he's using the value of the shares to get money, which should be counted as realizing their value, just as if he'd sold the shares.

So if he's taxed when he does this, what happens when he repays the loan? Does he get the taxes back?

Also, is there any standard worldwide where this is done? I'm asking seriously, as I'm just not aware of it. We all get value out of loans in the moment but don't pay taxes on them.