Elon Musk

[ckessel]

Engineering is a regulated profession. Strictly speaking Elon is not an engineer, since he does not have an engineering degree and does not have professional credentials. That's regardless of whether he is doing work that could be considered engineering.

Well, as a software "engineer" there's a huge can of worms on this particular topic. Steve McConnell wrote an entire book with lots of related discussion "Professional Software Development: <plus bunch of subtitle>".

I'm a huge buff on software history/culture /practice and could talk at length on it . The short end is you're right, software isn't regulated, but I'm not sure I'd concede that it takes regulation to make something "engineering". Engineers existed before regulations. I've got a BSCS and a Masters in "Software Engineering" (the program was "Oregon Master of Software Engineering), so I feel fairly comfortable saying I'm a software engineer, though in the software world developer/engineer/programmer are all applicable and used somewhat interchangeably.

 

[Doug_G]

Well, as a software "engineer" there's a huge can of worms on this particular topic. Steve McConnell wrote an entire book with lots of related discussion "Professional Software Development: <plus bunch of subtitle>".

I'm a huge buff on software history/culture /practice and could talk at length on it . The short end is you're right, software isn't regulated, but I'm not sure I'd concede that it takes regulation to make something "engineering". Engineers existed before regulations. I've got a BSCS and a Masters in "Software Engineering" (the program was "Oregon Master of Software Engineering), so I feel fairly comfortable saying I'm a software engineer, though in the software world developer/engineer/programmer are all applicable and used somewhat interchangeably.

I don't know about your jurisdiction, but you can actually get in legal trouble for using "engineer" in your job title in Ontario, unless you have a P.Eng. designation. They'll ask you to desist nicely at first... and then if you don't stop they won't ask nice at all.

Even if you graduated from an engineering program you can't use the title "engineer" unless you're licensed. PEO does however license software engineers, if they're graduates of an engineering program and go through the usual ethics and legal exams.

(And yes I am a licensed engineer, which is how I know about this stuff.)

 

[Bud]

I was just responding to Raymond about why Mr. Musk might inspire the phrase “the devil himself”. I didn’t mean to imply that TEG or I felt that way too. Unfortunately, it’s very difficult to find out for sure what happened, in the absence of EV investigative journalism and in the enforced confidentiality of settlements and contracts.

To understand the “devil” point of view, it may be helpful to keep in mind that they consider him a pathological liar, so to them his statements don’t automatically disprove their point of view.

I know that many extremely talented and experienced aerospace engineers were available to hire in southern CA, but I’ve never heard of Musk mentioning anyone else making a contribution at Space-X. I might have missed it. Maybe someone knows the names of some of the key engineers there.

The following is not an attempt at proof, but partial explanation, It’s only my best recollection. Anyone who cares for more could look in Wiki or find links elsewhere on this site.

Martin was asked to resign from TM, and offered considerable financial incentives to do so. Some time after he finally did, he listed on his blog something like information about a group of people who were let go from TM. That was used by TM to withdraw some of the financial incentives, claiming a violation of a non-disparagement clause. A TM employee wrecked his roadster before he could receive it, and other apparently malicious treatment and delays ensued.

Martin was finally forced to start a lawsuit to try to receive his due. Also mentioned in the lawsuit were Musk’s claims about being a founder of TM and his denigrating of Martin’s role. Further, it was said that Musk’s claim to have earned an undergraduate degree in physics couldn’t be verified. Musk claimed to have been enrolled in a graduate program studying ultracapacitors at Stanford, from which he dropped out after a few days. It was claimed that there was no record that Musk was ever enrolled at Stanford for any reason.

The lawsuit was settled out of court, the terms of which were made confidential, and were apparently much to Martin’s satisfaction. That was a disappointment to those of us who were curious to see the testimony in a trial, but since Martin was satisfied we slept it off.

None of this is important any longer except to those interested in the history involved.

 

[Norbert]

Engineering is a regulated profession. Strictly speaking Elon is not an engineer, since he does not have an engineering degree and does not have professional credentials. That's regardless of whether he is doing work that could be considered engineering.

Maybe someday he'll get an honrary degree like Bill Gates, or a "National Medal of Technology" like Steve Jobs.

 

[Bearman]

Interesting history Bud, I wonder what Martin does these days.

 

[AnOutsider]

Interesting history Bud, I wonder what Martin does these days.

Didn't he do a bit of work for VW for a while?

 

[ckessel]

I don't know about your jurisdiction, but you can actually get in legal trouble for using "engineer" in your job title in Ontario, unless you have a P.Eng. designation. They'll ask you to desist nicely at first... and then if you don't stop they won't ask nice at all.

Even if you graduated from an engineering program you can't use the title "engineer" unless you're licensed. PEO does however license software engineers, if they're graduates of an engineering program and go through the usual ethics and legal exams.

(And yes I am a licensed engineer, which is how I know about this stuff.)

Yea, no such laws in the US, at least for software. That's actually a big part of McConnell's writings, what should it mean to be a licensed software engineer?

 

[bonnie]

I don't know about your jurisdiction, but you can actually get in legal trouble for using "engineer" in your job title in Ontario, unless you have a P.Eng. designation. They'll ask you to desist nicely at first... and then if you don't stop they won't ask nice at all.

Even if you graduated from an engineering program you can't use the title "engineer" unless you're licensed. PEO does however license software engineers, if they're graduates of an engineering program and go through the usual ethics and legal exams.

(And yes I am a licensed engineer, which is how I know about this stuff.)

In many industries, it's about what you know, not what degrees or licenses you have.

For instance, medical device technology is heavily regulated worldwide, but especially in the US. While FDA will inspect design & development methodology, training of the people working on the project, etc., they never require that someone be 'licensed'. What they DO require is that someone have the right experience for the job they're working on.

And while Canadian law may have a specific view on this, Health Canada (equivalent of FDA) does not require licensed engineers on the development team. They, like the FDA, require development team members can demonstrate appropriate knowledge for the work they were tasked with. In fact, I could have ALL licensed engineers on a project and have a problem if the regulating authority didn't see appropriate previous experience.

 

[dsm363]

Didn't he do a bit of work for VW for a while?

Martin Eberhards Leaving Volkswagen | Autopia | Wired.com
He did but was only there for a short time.

 

[Norbert]

I know that many extremely talented and experienced aerospace engineers were available to hire in southern CA, but I’ve never heard of Musk mentioning anyone else making a contribution at Space-X. I might have missed it. Maybe someone knows the names of some of the key engineers there.

He said he acquired his understanding of rocket science based on his physics studies, reading lots of books, and by learning from the rocket experts at SpaceX who he said are among the best in the world (which surely they are). Or something like that. He also credited NASA with helping them a lot.

 

[hcsharp]

...
I know that many extremely talented and experienced aerospace engineers were available to hire in southern CA, but I’ve never heard of Musk mentioning anyone else making a contribution at Space-X. I might have missed it. Maybe someone knows the names of some of the key engineers there.
...

My father was best friends with a world-renowned rocket scientist who spent the last years of his career working for Space X as a consultant. They employ many engineers and scientists. Elon is not the lead technical guy by any means. My father's friend said that he liked working for Space X and that it was a very well managed company.

 

[Doug_G]

In many industries, it's about what you know, not what degrees or licenses you have.

For instance, medical device technology is heavily regulated worldwide, but especially in the US. While FDA will inspect design & development methodology, training of the people working on the project, etc., they never require that someone be 'licensed'. What they DO require is that someone have the right experience for the job they're working on.

And while Canadian law may have a specific view on this, Health Canada (equivalent of FDA) does not require licensed engineers on the development team. They, like the FDA, require development team members can demonstrate appropriate knowledge for the work they were tasked with. In fact, I could have ALL licensed engineers on a project and have a problem if the regulating authority didn't see appropriate previous experience.

I would agree that a professional designation is less important in technical fields. I think I've only ever actually needed my designation once. On the other hand it is a legal requirement in areas such as civil engineering (necessary but not sufficient - you also have to be competent in the specific field of engineering).

But I was only pointing out that in many jurisdictions you had to have the professional designation in order to use the word "engineer" in your job title.

 

[mt2]

All of my opinions of Elon - likable, unlikable, awkward but compelling public speaker - can be summed up by the word "driven". The man has a vision, a good vision in my opinion, and he's going to make that vision reality come Hell or high water.

 

[vfx]

Driven.

That he had a lot of money by selling a business and did not spend it on an island then started another company and sold it for even more and did not buy a chain of islands and started yet another company and then invested in Tesla and Solar City tells me he in not in it for the islands.

 

[AnOutsider]

Driven.

That he had a lot of money by selling a business and did not spend it on an island then started another company and sold it for even more and did not buy a chain of islands and started yet another company and then invested in Tesla and Solar City tells me he in not in it for the islands.

Clearly he is saving up for a continent.

 

[rabar10]

Clearly he is saving up for a continent.

LOL :biggrin:

 

[Citizen-T]

But, how do you know where the line is between an island and a continent???

 

[Bud]

Bearman,

In answer to your question, FORA.tv - Martin Eberhard: Learn by Doing , a video from last May, is the latest information I have on Martin. He mentioned the following:

He spent a year at a venture capital firm as an entrepreneur in residence.

As noted elsewhere on this thread, he spent a year as the EV engineering director at VW’s Electronics Research Lab in Palo Alto.

He said that every time he’s finished with a startup company, it takes a while to unwind and decide what to do next, and he was in the middle of that.

Also mentioned was that even though he had only a single digit percentage of Tesla stock, he did just fine at the Tesla IPO.

Maybe someone can answer a question for me. What’s up with this Norbert person? He seems like the de facto voice of TMC, weighing in on every subject from faster-than-light particle physics to lecturing Chelsea Sexton on EV advocacy. He just tried to ridicule my implied suggestion that a financial expert could successfully run a technology-intensive company.

By contrast, TMC has many very bright and knowledgeable and thoughtful contributors. It’s gaining a lot of notice in the worldwide EV community, and might do well to somehow reduce the cringe factor.

 

[Norbert]

Clearly he is saving up for a continent.

Planet Mars, actually.

 

[Norbert]

He just tried to ridicule my implied suggestion that a financial expert could successfully run a technology-intensive company.

Nonsense. That's not even wrong.