TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Elon please veto your lawyers!

Discussion in 'Model S' started by GregTexas, Sep 19, 2015.

  1. GregTexas

    GregTexas Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Messages:
    223
    Location:
    College Station, TX
    I have test driven almost all the cars out that do lane keeping. I'm very familiar with the good and bad. I would never buy a car with the nag feature.
    Infiniti and Audi do not nag. Volvo doesn't nag but their lane keeping was terrible.

    I drove an Infiniti Q50 form Texas to California and the lane keeping made the trip much more enjoyable. The Q50 was great on straightaways but usually needed some help on the curves.

    According to the 7.0 Beta Discussion thread the autosteer part of autopilot forces the driver to periodically grab the steering wheel.
    This nag accomplishes nothing other than making car less safe to drive. It makes you take your eyes off the road to first read the nag notice and then find your way to the steering wheel to then apply just enough torque to turn off the nag.
    Apply too much torque and autosteer shuts off causing you to further be distracted from the road to turn on the autosteer again.
    It is much better to focus on the road and look for situations that you know autosteer might have a problem with and be ready to take over. My hands are always close by.
    Forcing me to periodically grab the steering wheel is akin to forcing me to apply the brakes periodically.
     
  2. fwgmills

    fwgmills Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2015
    Messages:
    101
    Location:
    Roanoke, TX
    I currently drive a Ford Explorer with lane keeping assist and it's just that, an assist. Even if I'm driving down a straight road if it's turned on and the steering wheel doesn't move for a period of time I get a warning. In today's extremely litigious society I'd be surprised if there wasn't a nag using autopilot. I've just come to expect it, like my forward collision alert being way too sensitive and beeping at me all the time.
     
  3. GSP

    GSP Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,998
    At the current ability of autonomous driving, I think it is necessary to always have at least on hand on the wheel. There are situations where the driver must take control immediately, in less than one second, sometimes much less.

    When autonomous driving can always detect problems automatically, and still safely bring the car to a complete stop in a safe parking place, then the driver should be allowed to take their hands off the wheel. They also could take their eyes off the road. Hopefully autonomous driving can get to this level fairly quickly.

    GSP
     
  4. Krugerrand

    Krugerrand Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2012
    Messages:
    4,286
    Location:
    California
    People drive without having their hands (or at least one hand) on the steering wheel? I guess that explains a lot of what I see going on on the road. :frown:
     
  5. mobe

    mobe Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2015
    Messages:
    275
    Location:
    Joplin, Missouri
    Agreed. I have a friend with a nag auto steer system. It is terrible and totally ruins the auto drive experience. I am responsible for my car when I am the pilot and do not need to be distracted by a nanny. I am also a pilot and the autopilot system on my aircraft does not require a nanny. It is well established that the PILOT is RESPONSIBLE for his aircraft and all of the systems. Why would it be any different with a car. The DRIVER is RESPONSIBLE for the operation of the car and all its systems and is RESPONSIBLE to learn their proper use. I would be fine with a one time pop up or a pop up for every 50 ignition cycles that has me agree that use of the autopilot requires the driver to maintain constant vigilance of the system.
     
  6. brent_strong

    brent_strong New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2015
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Franklin, TN
    This has seemed to defeat the nag for a Prius like lane keep assist (only ever tested on a closed circuit, never on public roads, of course - that'd be irresponsible). Still, it'd be MUCH nicer to have no nag at all.

    IMG_2332.jpg
     
  7. eclipxe

    eclipxe Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    666
    Location:
    CA
    It hasn't been confirmed that hands on the wheel are required during auto steer. Slow down folks let's wait until we have all of the facts.
     
  8. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,660
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Very poor analogy.
    How often are you flying your plane in formation with 2-4 other planes within 8 feet?
     
  9. slevit1md

    slevit1md Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Messages:
    193
    Location:
    Lebanon, OR
    As mentioned, no confirmation that it will require a hand on the wheel. And even if it does for beta testers, that could change by the final release. No reason to get all worked up at this point.
     
  10. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Messages:
    4,710
    Location:
    Buckeye, AZ
    I feel that Tesla needs to protect itself from those who are going to make assumptions about how the feature is supposed to work. Tesla cannot afford to be sued by someone who goes over a cliff because they weren't reminded to keep their hands on the wheel. A certain amount of legal consideration is appropriate with a feature of such magnitude, and one that could also lead to tremendous liability.
     
  11. BrianC

    BrianC Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2014
    Messages:
    112
    Location:
    United States
    What in the world are you guys doing when behind the wheel? playing cards?? Frankly unless ALL cars are autonomous I want everyone with a hand on the wheel. Computers and sensors can fix the moron weaving in and out of traffic that pulls right in front of the car causing a over correct and the guy who is tailgating you to smash up the back end of your car.
     
  12. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Messages:
    13,257
    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    ^This.

    As has been pointed out elsewhere, the only comment made regarding nagging was a singular, third-hand, anecdote from months back.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The autopilot features are specifically designed for freeway driving, I recall from somewhere that it will ask the driver to take over on windy roads or where markings are unreadable. Driving off the cliff while on autopilot becomes almost an impossibility unless the driver intends it.
     
  13. Krugerrand

    Krugerrand Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2012
    Messages:
    4,286
    Location:
    California
    Don't be silly. They're texting and doing e-mail. :wink:
     
  14. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2012
    Messages:
    4,453
    Location:
    WPB Florida
    Elon seems to have a relatively short fuse when it comes to BS combined with a healthy dislike/respect for attorneys. Good business people understand that attorneys are simply another tool in the box (pun intended). It is the skilled operator that makes the most out of the tool and the tool should never be left to drive the bus without a mechanic's guidance (mixed in a bunch of junk on that one).

    You can bet that, if we think nags suck, Elon will feel the same times ten. If nag and/or constant intervention were required, AP would have been released a long time ago.
     
  15. capt601

    capt601 Vin02324

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Messages:
    454
    Location:
    Mission Viejo, California, United States
    So true!! And as a pilot also, we are also trained on all aspects of the aircraft, including all autopilot functions,etc... And trained for contingencies. Most people driving Cars have a hard enough time chewing gum while driving, let alone learning about their car and its functions.
     
  16. AntronX

    AntronX Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Messages:
    255
    Location:
    Miami, FL, USA
    Well that defeats the purpose of auto lane keeping for me. On long drives I like to sit back and relax my shoulders, hands by making slight steering adjustments with my leg touching the steering wheel right above my left knee. Having to keep one hand on the wheel is a deal breaker. Sorry Tesla, but I definitely would not buy autopilot with the nag that I cannot disable. I can live with having to press "are you awake?" button every 30 seconds conveniently located near arm rest spot.
     
  17. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages:
    5,392
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY
    I honestly can't tell if this post is serious or not, but going on the assumption that it is...

    Even if Tesla did institute a nag that required a "hand" on the wheel to indicate driver involvement, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that your steering with your knee would satisfy the nag.
     
  18. AntronX

    AntronX Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Messages:
    255
    Location:
    Miami, FL, USA
    Then what's the point of buying auto steering then? I can already lane keep my car without hands for free. It's kind of uncomfortable to steer with my knee for long periods of time, so hands-free (and legs-free) auto lane keeping would be nice feature to have. Although I can imagine some idiot engaging auto pilot, sitting back and then immediately falling asleep...
     
  19. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages:
    5,392
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY
    I'm not following your logic.

    First of all, none of us know if Tesla is even instituting this nag feature.

    But in your first post, you wrote that --if-- they instituted the nag feature that involved needing a --hand-- on the steering wheel, that would be a deal-breaker for you because on long trips you liked to drive with your knee (and not your hands.) I was pointing out that --if-- Tesla instituted a nag feature that required a hand on the wheel, that your knee would probably satisfy the nag requirement, so that should not be the deal-breaker for you.

    If you are now saying that --any-- nag requirement is a deal-breaker for you, then that's a different argument all together, and the driving with your knees vs. your hands had nothing to do with anything, and was just a red herring.
     
  20. AntronX

    AntronX Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Messages:
    255
    Location:
    Miami, FL, USA
    No, I don't take my hands off the wheel for the sole purpose of steering with my knee. I certainly don't --like-- doing it.

    It would be a deal breaker. I would not want to use my knee as a nag defeater. I want to enable cruise control and auto lane keeping on long and straight part highway, when sit back to relax my legs and arms while still keeping my eyes on the road. I don't want lane assist feature that requires my arm (or knee) to be touching the steering wheel.

    I am OK with having to press conveniently located time-out button once in 30 seconds to verify that I am awake. As long as said button is not exclusively located on the steering wheel. Sorry, I can't explain it even clearer. Will have to leave this argument as is.
     

Share This Page