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Elon tweets "no waypoints", "car will autonavigate to your destination."

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Two good examples for waypoints just today.

Planning to charge at the Rolla, MO Supercharger. Wanted to pickup some takeout to eat while charging, but couldn't handle that through the Navigator.

To Rolla Supercharger was overloaded, so only getting 60 -70 instead of the 140 we would get if we weren't sharing a V2 Supercharger pedestal pair.

Wanted to add the next Supercharger up I-44 as a waypoint to figure out when to leave, but the only way to do that is to make it the destination.

Yuck
We need waypoints
 
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If you do indeed have a true solution to the traveling salesman problem, then you are probably also a billionaire :)

It's not solved last I heard, just not an issue with modern computing power for the small number of data points involved in any real-world route.
errr #92
If Garmin can figure it out in a hand held device, Tesla should have it nailed with the in car nav.

Sooner or later Elon will figure out what normal people do with his cars
 
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errr #92
If Garmin can figure it out in a hand held device, Tesla should have it nailed with the in car nav.

Sooner or later Elon will figure out what normal people do with his cars

Garmin hasn't figured it out .. and nor has anyone else (yet). The traveling salesman problem is the canonical example of a computer science problem that has no known algorithmic solution other than brute force .. that is, you try every solution to see which one is best.

What the Garmin does (as does every other nav system) is use a series of heuristics, coupled with road data (freeway vs Main Street vs side road) to generate a reasonable approximation to an "optimal" route in a reasonable time .. and that's all it can do (it's good enough 99% of the time, which is all Garmin or anyone else needs).
 
Garmin hasn't figured it out .. and nor has anyone else (yet). The traveling salesman problem is the canonical example of a computer science problem that has no known algorithmic solution other than brute force .. that is, you try every solution to see which one is best.

What the Garmin does (as does every other nav system) is use a series of heuristics, coupled with road data (freeway vs Main Street vs side road) to generate a reasonable approximation to an "optimal" route in a reasonable time .. and that's all it can do (it's good enough 99% of the time, which is all Garmin or anyone else needs).
There are definitely algorithms that solve TSP exactly without brute force. NP-hard doesn't require brute force just because there is not a polynomial-time solution. See Wikipedia, for example. But that's pedantic, anyway. Garmin works well enough 99+% of the time regardless of how they get the answer, whereas "no waypoints" works 0% of the time when you want them.
I don't mean to be argumentative. I thought maybe somebody might find the "traveling salesman problem" interesting if they don't know about it already, so I posted a link.
 
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There are definitely algorithms that solve TSP exactly without brute force. NP-hard doesn't require brute force just because there is not a polynomial-time solution. See Wikipedia, for example. But that's pedantic, anyway. Garmin works well enough 99+% of the time regardless of how they get the answer, whereas "no waypoints" works 0% of the time when you want them.
I don't mean to be argumentative. I thought maybe somebody might find the "traveling salesman problem" interesting if they don't know about it already, so I posted a link.
I think that's more or less what I said, though I was trying to avoid going down the CS detail rat hole. Not sure Tesla forum is a good place to discuss big-O notation :)
 
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There are definitely algorithms that solve TSP exactly without brute force. NP-hard doesn't require brute force just because there is not a polynomial-time solution. See Wikipedia, for example. But that's pedantic, anyway. Garmin works well enough 99+% of the time regardless of how they get the answer, whereas "no waypoints" works 0% of the time when you want them.
I don't mean to be argumentative. I thought maybe somebody might find the "traveling salesman problem" interesting if they don't know about it already, so I posted a link.
exactly - I don't care if its some esoteric CS puzzle with a fictional 100% solution :D
The current Tesla solution fixes 0% of it, whereas Garmin, Google and most other online mapping fixes 95%
I'd rather have 95% instead of 0% or waiting an infinite amount of time to get a so called 100% CS solution

The big picture here is that the crappy no choice routing in the Nav isn't a huge deal right now when you can easily ignore it and let it correct as it goes.
The other shoe will drop when you're trying to use FSD and that crappy routing is your only routing option.
 
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If you do indeed have a true solution to the traveling salesman problem, then you are probably also a billionaire :)

It's not solved last I heard, just not an issue with modern computing power for the small number of data points involved in any real-world route.



Review of SP2610 Garmin GPS said:
All SP26xx models have implemented a solution to "the traveling salesman problem". The user can input a series of destinations and the SP26xx will compute a "shortest route" to cover all of the locations in a minimum time or minimum distance trip.

Note that GPS is from 2001 originally.

I used the feature quite a number of times on trips.

It might not be quantum-level-solves-for-2000-cities-at-once optimal, but it worked great for actual normal use.
 



Note that GPS is from 2001 originally.

I used the feature quite a number of times on trips.

It might not be quantum-level-solves-for-2000-cities-at-once optimal, but it worked great for actual normal use.
I do not understand where this discussion went. I don't think anybody thinks of waypoints as inputting a collection of destinations, in no particular order, and having the system figure out the best order, and then route, to visit all. That would, indeed, be the traveling salesman problem.

In almost all scenarios I know of, it goes differently. You have a final destination, and just want the navigation to make sure you pass through certain intermediate destinations. That, my fiends, is not classified as the traveling salesman problem. It simply is a connected series of point to point navigations.

On my wife's Toyota Highlander if/when you enter a destination and there is already at least one active, it asks if you want to replace the active destination, or add this one. If you choose "Add" it next asks you where in the list of destinations you want to put it (in other words there is an order to these waypoints/destinations). Once you have a list of successive destinations the challenge to the computation of the route is very simply the same as for a system without waypoint support: between each two successive waypoints it is a simple routing algorithm that very nav I know has sorted out in some fashion (not all come up with an equally liked route, but that is an entirely different problem). This Toyota Nav has done this for us, no problem, for the last 10+ years.

So I can see that Tesla has convinced themselves the UI for adding waypoints in some order is challenging, but in my personal opinion (I am a 35+ year SW engineer) that's a cop out. It is simply a matter of priority, although I can see that the automatic computation of charging stops complicates matters a little. The best stop might be before the next waypoint, if you took into account routing beyond that waypoint, but might not be necessary at all if just navigating to that waypoint. This has a solution and they have plenty of compute power.
 
I do not understand where this discussion went. I don't think anybody thinks of waypoints as inputting a collection of destinations, in no particular order, and having the system figure out the best order, and then route, to visit all. That would, indeed, be the traveling salesman problem.

In almost all scenarios I know of, it goes differently. You have a final destination, and just want the navigation to make sure you pass through certain intermediate destinations. That, my fiends, is not classified as the traveling salesman problem. It simply is a connected series of point to point navigations.

On my wife's Toyota Highlander if/when you enter a destination and there is already at least one active, it asks if you want to replace the active destination, or add this one. If you choose "Add" it next asks you where in the list of destinations you want to put it (in other words there is an order to these waypoints/destinations). Once you have a list of successive destinations the challenge to the computation of the route is very simply the same as for a system without waypoint support: between each two successive waypoints it is a simple routing algorithm that very nav I know has sorted out in some fashion (not all come up with an equally liked route, but that is an entirely different problem). This Toyota Nav has done this for us, no problem, for the last 10+ years.

So I can see that Tesla has convinced themselves the UI for adding waypoints in some order is challenging, but in my personal opinion (I am a 35+ year SW engineer) that's a cop out. It is simply a matter of priority, although I can see that the automatic computation of charging stops complicates matters a little. The best stop might be before the next waypoint, if you took into account routing beyond that waypoint, but might not be necessary at all if just navigating to that waypoint. This has a solution and they have plenty of compute power.
Agreed. Plus, you can do a cross-country trip and nav will select superchargers along the way. Computationally, it's the same as waypoints. The vast majority of the code must already be in there. They just don't let the user select the waypoints - only Tesla can do that.
 
I do not understand where this discussion went. I don't think anybody thinks of waypoints as inputting a collection of destinations, in no particular order, and having the system figure out the best order, and then route, to visit all. That would, indeed, be the traveling salesman problem.

and as I mentioned- that's exactly what I often did with my Garmin (well, the start and end points were fixed, but that didn't change its ability to optimize hitting all the other points between the two)

Used it on virtually every trip we took since we'd be hitting a number of destinations each day and the GPS could optimize a route between them.

Likewise used locally if I had several errands to run at a time...is it quicker to swing by the grocery to pick up some garlic bread to go with the pasta, THEN the wine store for the wine to go with dinner, THEN the hardware store for that tool I'll need for a project this weekend THEN my friends place to grab that book she was gonna lend me... THEN final destination of my home... or should I do hardware, then grocery, then book, then wine, then home... or some other order? The GPS just auto-optimizes that for me, every time.

It was pretty great.

Not necessarily an EVERY day thing one makes multiple stops, but often enough it was great to have available.


In almost all scenarios I know of, it goes differently. You have a final destination, and just want the navigation to make sure you pass through certain intermediate destinations. That, my fiends, is not classified as the traveling salesman problem. It simply is a connected series of point to point navigations.

Well it IS one, you (in this scenario) are just ok doing so inefficiently and wasting time so you're ok with a solution that doesn't solve the TS problem even though it'd be objectively better if you had that option in that case.

Not sure WHY so many folks are fine with that, but I guess you're saying they are.
 
I think that's more or less what I said, though I was trying to avoid going down the CS detail rat hole. Not sure Tesla forum is a good place to discuss big-O notation :)

You guys, knock it off. I'm in sales now, and don't want to remember my actual edukashon. Keep it up and I'm going to start remembering how Ingres' two phase commits work.
 
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I think perhaps Tesla is trying to make the experience of driving an electric car as seamless as a fossil car w.r.t. charging/refuelling. So, they want the driver to get in and just drive and not worry about range. Obsessively planning a trip due to poor charging infrastructure should not be necessary in Tesla’s view. Hence, they see the requirement for waypoints as a nice to have feature rather than something essential to being able to conveniently do a road trip.

A good example of this thinking is when I have a 300km journey but only have 50% charge in the car at the start. Telsa’s nav will get me to charge up at the beginning of the trip for, say, 10 minutes and arrive at my destination with, say, 10% charge. What I actually do is ignore the nav and don’t charge at the beginning, drive halfway, stop to charge and have a bite to eat etc, then arrive at my destination with about 50% charge. Much better!

Tesla’s nav recommendation is more like a fossel car approach, ie fuel up in 5 minutes then drive like the clappers for 3 hours straight.
 
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In almost all scenarios I know of, it goes differently. You have a final destination, and just want the navigation to make sure you pass through certain intermediate destinations. That, my fiends, is not classified as the traveling salesman problem. It simply is a connected series of point to point navigations.

Because the point-to-point is still the same problem, purely from a technical standpoint. How to find an optimal route between two nodes in an arbitrary graph. I merely noted this, somewhat whimsically, because an earlier post said it was a solved problem, when of course its famous as not have any known general NP solution. Then everyone got all excited, as people tend to do in forums I guess.

And of course, in practical terms, nav systems solve the problem by favoring different classes of roads, which vastly prunes the graph and allows it to find a nearly optimal route in very little time.
 
I think perhaps Tesla is trying to make the experience of driving an electric car as seamless as a fossil car w.r.t. charging/refuelling. So, they want the driver to get in and just drive and not worry about range. Obsessively planning a trip due to poor charging infrastructure should not be necessary in Tesla’s view. Hence, they see the requirement for waypoints as a nice to have feature rather than something essential to being able to conveniently do a road trip.

None of this has anything to do with charging though.

ICE cars, obviously, don't care about charging stations (gas stations being ubiquitous) and yet waypoints (and solving, for all practical/useful definitions of that word) the travelling salesman problem) are a popular and common feature of them.

Making the lack of either on a Tesla stand out as a weirdness... "HOW CAN A CAR SO ADVANCED LACK SUCH BASIC FEATURES?!"



A good example of this thinking is when I have a 300km journey but only have 50% charge in the car at the start. Telsa’s nav will get me to charge up at the beginning of the trip for, say, 10 minutes and arrive at my destination with, say, 10% charge. What I actually do is ignore the nav and don’t charge at the beginning, drive halfway, stop to charge and have a bite to eat etc, then arrive at my destination with about 50% charge. Much better!

Tesla’s nav recommendation is more like a fossel car approach, ie fuel up in 5 minutes then drive like the clappers for 3 hours straight.


Again this isn't about charging.

If I want to run 3 or 4 different errands tomorrow I want to be able to put them into my nav and have it provide an optimal route between them so I waste as little time as possible.

I won't remotely come near using even half my range doing this.

Likewise if I'm being a tourist in a town I've driven to, I want to be given a route from my hotel to the several different sites I plan to visit that day, a museum, a park, a memorial, a winery, some cool shop I read about, etc... with an optimal route the between them.

Not about range, but about not wasting my time driving extra miles because the nav is too stupid to understand I might ever want to go more than ONE place.
 
If I want to run 3 or 4 different errands tomorrow I want to be able to put them into my nav and have it provide an optimal route between them so I waste as little time as possible.

I see the problem as slightly different but with a similar end result. I don't really want the nav "optimizing" my route - I'd much prefer being able to just enter a set of stops and let it give me a route A-B-C-D, in the order I specify. More often than not, I want the stops "in order" instead of "best route" due to external factors - opening times, when I'm hungry and stopping for lunch, schedules, pickup times, etc. Simply a concatenation of multiple point-to-point routes.

I understand your request and it's definitely valuable -- but certainly more complex than my needs, and I'm going with the "perfect is the enemy of good" rule here. I'd settle for the concatenation and be thrilled with the optimization.

But where we sit today, neither case works.
 
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Because the point-to-point is still the same problem, purely from a technical standpoint. How to find an optimal route between two nodes in an arbitrary graph. I merely noted this, somewhat whimsically, because an earlier post said it was a solved problem, when of course its famous as not have any known general NP solution. Then everyone got all excited, as people tend to do in forums I guess.

And of course, in practical terms, nav systems solve the problem by favoring different classes of roads, which vastly prunes the graph and allows it to find a nearly optimal route in very little time.
It is not the same problem, and the difference is what makes navigation systems that work quickly possible (most modern nav do not blow up when you enter a coast to coast tip).

TSP is defined: "Given a list of cities and the distances between each pair of cities, what is the shortest possible route that visits each city exactly once and returns to the origin city?" Note that it ends where it starts, which kinda makes it not useful for navigation, but of course this can be worked around. This problem is what is called NP-complete which in worst case could mean exponentially increased compute time. Entering Los Angeles to Boston with an enormous graph of connecting road segments in between will not allow a route to be found using TSP! It doesn't even solve this problem.

Navigation problems, as encountered in journey planning, is related to the "shortest path problem" and this is NOT the same as the TSP. Computing an (optimal) path through a graph from one node to another (A to B) where optimal is defined in various ways (optimize speed, minimize distance, minimize elevation changes, avoid toll roads, what have you) is often done using the A* algorithm. This algorithm is a "solved" problem.

Navigations systems almost always use the A* algorithm (or close variation) which applies a heuristic to drastically prune the search space and this speeds up the computation. It all centers on a somewhat accurate calculation of the cost of a segment between junctions, and the heuristic. Further optimizations consist when you notice that the only place to have route variations are intersections, and junctions (exits simply lead to these). The cost (time, speed, fuel) of each segment between junctions needs to be computed along all the road segments along the way (curves, segments with different speed etc.), but the A* itself only needs to be done from junction to junction.

Charging does not really complicate A to B planning because one can either reach B without charging or not. If one can, we're done. If not the heuristic in the A* algorithm needs to be adjusted so that any route choice that leads away from an SC before we have enough charge to reach B becomes prohibitively expensive. This is, however, a simplification as there may be multiple SC choices reasonable available between A and B.

The cost factor, in Tesla's case also involves estimate SoC on arrival (at SC and at B) and optimal charging durations based on SC characteristics and SoC. If there is a further destination C it may be that charging again, just before B (even though not needed to reach B, and not even to reach C) is better than a little while after B but before C. While this further complicates the search space (graph), the approach remains essentially the same.

Dynamic detours (traffic info) are basically the same problem. During the drive the cost is constantly computed. Segments with traffic problems become more expensive and alternatives might now be discovered...

Waypoints (points on the way), as most people regard them, are simply expressing a desire to visit C, D and E (in that order) after leaving A, but before reaching B. Other than effects on charging decisions, one can run the A* separately on A>C,C>D,D>E, and E>B. This is efficient and results in the way most people would use them. If users order A,C,D,E,B in some bizarre way, this approach will not hesitate to visit places or road segments twice if that makes sense. Although TSP does not solve this problem, it would not visit things twice.

The UI for entering/managing waypoints is a separate problem that has many solutions.
 
I agree that nav waypoints are a very basic must-have. It seems absurd not to add that functionality. And it should not be that hard either. Heck, if they can add games, they could surely add waypoints.

My concern is that the prediction algorithm is not going to be very good, causing owners to get frustrated when the car is autonavigating to the wrong address and they have to cancel all the time. And even if after months of fine tuning, the algorithm does get good, owners should still have the right to add waypoints to control where and how they navigate somewhere.

Hopefully, Elon will change his mind if enough customers complain.
My standard routine in my Model 3 after backing out of the driveway is to cancel it's auto-navigation to my wife's place of work. Sometimes I'll just let it go so I can feel like I'm somehow punishing it as it constantly has to recalculate new routes as I drive in the opposite direction.
 
My standard routine in my Model 3 after backing out of the driveway is to cancel it's auto-navigation to my wife's place of work. Sometimes I'll just let it go so I can feel like I'm somehow punishing it as it constantly has to recalculate new routes as I drive in the opposite direction.
I was trying to get to a fairly obscure place (sorry, Snook, TX) and there was a bridge out on the route that the nav wanted me to take. As I made my way, nav was insistent that the route I should take was over that bridge. As I passed every intersection, it kept telling me to turn around, over and over. I was literally almost in sight of my destination before it relented and just let me drive straight 1/4 mile or so instead of looping back several miles. So, I won.... I guess? :D
In all fairness, it might have just been bad map data, since in one spot it told me to drive across a cotton field.