mikes_fsd
Banned
BEV NN takes all 8 camera NN outputs and stitches it into a Birds Eye View.
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Elon tweets "pure vision" will solve phantom braking
- Thread starter diplomat33
- Start date
Tam
Well-Known Member
Yes, I am criticizing the vision system that Tesla has used then, now, and questionable near future (It might be perfected years from now but questionable for any time soon such as V8.2 and 9):
Notice that as of 2014, Tesla's built-in camera from MobilEye already had the ability to read posted speed signs while its RADAR could not.
It's true that the vision technologies that Tesla has been using since 2014 until now have still been deficient ("didn't exist"is too harsh of a description) and it is doubtful that V8.2, V9 will be able to reliably brake for collision avoidance as well as phantom braking avoidance (projected images on the road, shadows on the road, harmless objects flying in the air such as balloons, plastic bags...)
From the horse's mouth:
"Neither Autopilot nor the driver noticed the white side of the tractor trailer against a brightly lit sky, so the brake was not applied."
Notice the words "white" and "brightly lit". Those are not for RADAR because it doesn't distinguish black or white, brightly lit or dimly-lit/unlit conditions but the camera does.
The NTSB says:
"On the 2015 Tesla Model S, the FCW/AEB system uses vehicle-resident camera and radar sensors and computer processing to provide warnings to the driver and to activate braking to prevent or mitigate an imminent crash."
"Speed Assist is a safety feature that provides a warning when the driver exceeds the speed limit. Speed limit information is derived from the camera system and the Tesla’s GPS mapping information."
In conclusion, Tesla's system to reliabbly avoid collision and phantom braking has been in its infancy stage since its first L2 system in 2014. The camera/vision technology that Tesla has been using is indeed existing but still deficient. It is now 2021 with V8.2 and soon V9 but I don't see any evidence that Tesla's system can and will reliably avoid collision and phantom braking anytime soon because the DMV letters have confirmed that the system is still L2 now and future even in its final release of the City Streets version. Its final version still needs humans to avoid collision and phantom braking as admitted in DMV letters.
Another fatal Tesla crash into an overturned semi on May 5, 2021 near Fontana, California.
NHTSA investigating fatal Tesla crash in Southern California
Federal vehicle safety regulators are investigating yet another Tesla-involved crash-- it has started 29 so far, 25 of which are underway.
www.cnbc.com
GlmnAlyAirCar
Active Member
I can quote random press releases as well. That doesn't change the technical capabilities of the system. You are reading into that first quote quite a bit to assume that the camera might apply the brakes. This is a toxic environment and you are not worth my time to argue with. So good day.
Tam
Well-Known Member
I am saying the vision will be perfected. And yes, Tesla will solve the problems to get us to the L5 robotaxis, but it's the timing--when?
With each release, many people were having unrealistic expectations. And that brought disappointment such as:
Navigate on Autopilot is Useless (2018.42.3)
I just gave unmodified, unhacked, fully stock 2018.42.3 Navigate on Autopilot a good try with an open mind on a ~300 mile drive this weekend. I've seen some videos, tweets, posts, etc praising the feature. I hadn't really had a chance to try it on a longer drive myself as of yet, though, until...
teslamotorsclub.com
Same with Smart Summons. So much hype but then people are still needed to be reminded that it's still an L2 system.
Yes, V8.2, V9 are better than nothing but remember, it's still an L2 system. That's still an infancy phase comparing to L5 Robotaxi.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Not sure where people get this idea there is no phantom braking with other OEMs. Links from a quick Google done in other thread (this is just the VAG examples):
Sudden deceleration while in Cruise Control - AudiWorld Forums
Q7 MKII Discussion - Sudden deceleration while in Cruise Control - 2017 Q7 Prestige. I have experienced the following problem and would like to know if anyone can help resolve it: While driving with my cruise control set at 70 or so, I have suddenly had the car decelerate. What I finally noticed...
www.audiworld.com
Adaptive cruise control and random braking 2021 Q5e Prestige - AudiWorld Forums
Q5/SQ5 MKII Discussion - Adaptive cruise control and random braking 2021 Q5e Prestige - 2021 Q5e prestige. Totally digging the adaptive cruise control. That being said its far from perfect. Happily going down the highway at 75 mph (128 N in Lexington, MA). All of a sudden, it says the speed...
www.audiworld.com
Adaptive Cruise Malfunctions - Scary - Ford F150 Forum - Community of Ford Truck Fans
2015 - 2020 Ford F150 - Adaptive Cruise Malfunctions - Scary - I own a 2015 F150 Platinum with about 6,000 miles. I am having an ongoing issue with the adaptive cruise control malfunctioning. So the cruise control is set... AT 65 mph... It's sunny outside and I approach a road overpass. AS I...
www.f150forum.com
It's harder to find given people don't generally call it "phantom braking," which seems to be a term used mainly by the Tesla community.
I only have my last 11k miles with my VAG and nary a phantom around.
last night in about 100 miles 2 phantom braking issues - one bridge, and the other just air I guess.
Google fu on.
Soda Popinski
Member
mikes_fsd
Banned
I can also quote stuff too: NoA is amazing.I am saying the vision will be perfected. And yes, Tesla will solve the problems to get us to the L5 robotaxis, but it's the timing--when?
With each release, many people were having unrealistic expectations. And that brought disappointment such as:
Navigate on Autopilot is Useless (2018.42.3)
I just gave unmodified, unhacked, fully stock 2018.42.3 Navigate on Autopilot a good try with an open mind on a ~300 mile drive this weekend. I've seen some videos, tweets, posts, etc praising the feature. I hadn't really had a chance to try it on a longer drive myself as of yet, though, until...
The same crash situation occurred with a Tesla with AP2 in 2019.
For what it's worth, we should all be thankful that the phantom braking isn't like it was in my Cadillac. That was a quite early TACC implementation (2005) and only used radar, and when going up a hill with an overpass at the top of it, it would sometimes get a return off the overpass, detect an impending collision, start rapidly flashing a bright red light on the HUD, blare an alarm sound, and slam* on the brakes. That'll wake ya up if you're starting to get a bit tired on a drive, I'll tell ya.
(* 0.3g of braking, which doesn't sound like a lot, but when it comes out of nowhere late at night on a road trip with no traffic in the middle of nowhere, it'll sure as hell feel like more)
(* 0.3g of braking, which doesn't sound like a lot, but when it comes out of nowhere late at night on a road trip with no traffic in the middle of nowhere, it'll sure as hell feel like more)
goRt
Active Member
Well I've driven 10s of k miles in 2 golfs without a single phantom breaking incident (on single and dual carriageway roads)
I get phantom braking in the M3 and the P100D previously (HW2 and HW3-)
Must be because I don't take the koolaid
goRt
Active Member
So a working solution is available but Musky yet again suffers from not invented here syndrome (for details see the appeal for drivers to move cars around as M3 production ramped - otherwise known as a predictable event)
Other VW Golf owners & other VW owners are not so lucky as you
-----------------
VW Adaptive Cruise/Anti-Collision Radar - Nearly crashed!
2016
.....
Chr1sch
January 2016
I've recently taken delivery of a Mk7 Gti, its bloody fantastic....one of the features is the adaptive cruise/anti-collision radar thing.
Anyway, merrily driving along yesterday, a Mk5 Fiesta I was following turned left (rather slowly in all fairness) and as it pulled off I accelerated away (rest assured I was NOT tailgating etc), anyway, next thing I know the car beeps and literally stands on its nose!
I mean it was a hugely aggressive stop, my daughter screamed, the car stopped dead and i must have been at least 5 meters away from the Fiesta and it was 80% off the road at that point.
kambites
January 2016
quotequote all
I could be wrong, but I read it as 5m to the side of (or at least partly to the side of) the Fiesta. I don't know about you people, but I very often pass within 5m of stationary cars when I'm travelling at significant speed. Pretty much every time I drive past a parked car, in fact. I'd be a bit miffed if my car anchored up every time I tried to drive within 5m of a parked car, even if a fifth of it was sticking out into the road. biggrin
Need more information really. If you were trying to squeeze by a few inches from the side of it, the car probably did the right thing in stopping. If you were several meters (or even 1m) to the side of it, it shouldn't have braked.
Chr1sch
5th January 2016
Sorry just catching up post work, and some interesting replies...
So to be clear, I had good sight down the road the car was turning left into, it was only a small fiesta of which i'd say everything bar the back bumper had cross the lines (80% ish of the car) into the road when i started to accelerate, i was by no means tailgating (the car actually has another warning if you start getting too close...visual and then beeping)
It is reassuring to hear others have had the same thing or similar, and I agree that whilst this has happened I dont feel inclined to disable completely given scenario's such as those where you look right at a roundabout and the car in front has stopped when it is clear...
That said, my first inclination was to turn it off, it braked alarmingly hard and fast in a scenario where I dont think any car behind me would be prepared for it...I mean picture it........2-3 car lengths behind a car doing 30-40mph, road clears, and he stands the car on its nose...unless you are bloody Houdini you are going to hit me.
I do now have a certain amount of trepidation and concern as to when else such overrides take control of the vehicle away from me in situations when other road users wont expect it.
.....
telecat
24th January 2016
My Sons Company Golf does it. He really gets annoyed if he is on a Motorway and the car to the left drifts over when he overtakes. Also useless when you see a gap over your shoulder to pull out into and the damn thing brakes as you do it!!! It seems to be a safety feature aimed at MLM's.
.....
Little Lofty
24th January 2016
I don't think adaptive is smart enough yet. I stopped using it on my wife's Golf R as I didn't like the way it slowed you down too much when the car in front turned left, especially turning off on along bending slip road to motorway services etc. It still 'sees' the car and doesn't realise it's turning so applies the brakes. The instance of rubbish flying into the sensor is also worrying. Maybe I didn't use it enough to get used to its quirks but I think they need cameras as well as the blind radar to work more effectively.
----------------
VW Golf mk7 forums - Front assist erroneous emergency braking
Sep 2015
Front assist erroneous emergency braking
Hi all, Yesterday I was driving on a small road into works and when approaching a metal plate to cover some works on the road, the car suddenly applied full brakes, showing the front assist symbol in the display. It was raining, with cars coming from front in the other lane but no one in front...
www.golfmk7.com
----------------
VW Golf mk7 forums
dickt
Sep 30, 2015
Mine has jammed on the brakes twice. Both times wrongly. It can't figure out what other vehicles are doing and why. A pain, but it will save accidents and lives.
----------------
Collision warning false positives when passing semi-trailer trucks
Jul 18, 2017
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Last edited:
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Well clearly other people with VAG cars (even a brand spanking new 2021 Q5 e) had different experiences. That's to be expected with anecdotal accounts (some people will have never experience a problem, others will have, maybe even regularly; one person's experience does not speak for everyone elses). Not sure what it has to do with "koolaid" (did those people experience phantom braking in VAG cars because they didn't drink VAG "koolaid")?
Basically I'm just saying it's easily proven false that VAG had "solved" the phantom braking problem, given it's easy to find accounts of phantom braking (even though people don't tend to call it that outside these forums). Only takes one counterexample to disprove the claim.
GlmnAlyAirCar
Active Member
goRt
Active Member
Other VW Golf owners & other VW owners are not so lucky as you
-----------------
VW Adaptive Cruise/Anti-Collision Radar - Nearly crashed!
2016
.....
Chr1sch
January 2016
I've recently taken delivery of a Mk7 Gti, its bloody fantastic....one of the features is the adaptive cruise/anti-collision radar thing.
Anyway, merrily driving along yesterday, a Mk5 Fiesta I was following turned left (rather slowly in all fairness) and as it pulled off I accelerated away (rest assured I was NOT tailgating etc), anyway, next thing I know the car beeps and literally stands on its nose!
I mean it was a hugely aggressive stop, my daughter screamed, the car stopped dead and i must have been at least 5 meters away from the Fiesta and it was 80% off the road at that point.
kambites
January 2016
quotequote all
I could be wrong, but I read it as 5m to the side of (or at least partly to the side of) the Fiesta. I don't know about you people, but I very often pass within 5m of stationary cars when I'm travelling at significant speed. Pretty much every time I drive past a parked car, in fact. I'd be a bit miffed if my car anchored up every time I tried to drive within 5m of a parked car, even if a fifth of it was sticking out into the road. biggrin
Need more information really. If you were trying to squeeze by a few inches from the side of it, the car probably did the right thing in stopping. If you were several meters (or even 1m) to the side of it, it shouldn't have braked.
Chr1sch
5th January 2016
Sorry just catching up post work, and some interesting replies...
So to be clear, I had good sight down the road the car was turning left into, it was only a small fiesta of which i'd say everything bar the back bumper had cross the lines (80% ish of the car) into the road when i started to accelerate, i was by no means tailgating (the car actually has another warning if you start getting too close...visual and then beeping)
It is reassuring to hear others have had the same thing or similar, and I agree that whilst this has happened I dont feel inclined to disable completely given scenario's such as those where you look right at a roundabout and the car in front has stopped when it is clear...
That said, my first inclination was to turn it off, it braked alarmingly hard and fast in a scenario where I dont think any car behind me would be prepared for it...I mean picture it........2-3 car lengths behind a car doing 30-40mph, road clears, and he stands the car on its nose...unless you are bloody Houdini you are going to hit me.
I do now have a certain amount of trepidation and concern as to when else such overrides take control of the vehicle away from me in situations when other road users wont expect it.
.....
telecat
24th January 2016
My Sons Company Golf does it. He really gets annoyed if he is on a Motorway and the car to the left drifts over when he overtakes. Also useless when you see a gap over your shoulder to pull out into and the damn thing brakes as you do it!!! It seems to be a safety feature aimed at MLM's.
.....
Little Lofty
24th January 2016
I don't think adaptive is smart enough yet. I stopped using it on my wife's Golf R as I didn't like the way it slowed you down too much when the car in front turned left, especially turning off on along bending slip road to motorway services etc. It still 'sees' the car and doesn't realise it's turning so applies the brakes. The instance of rubbish flying into the sensor is also worrying. Maybe I didn't use it enough to get used to its quirks but I think they need cameras as well as the blind radar to work more effectively.
----------------
VW Golf mk7 forums - Front assist erroneous emergency braking
Sep 2015
Front assist erroneous emergency braking
Hi all, Yesterday I was driving on a small road into works and when approaching a metal plate to cover some works on the road, the car suddenly applied full brakes, showing the front assist symbol in the display. It was raining, with cars coming from front in the other lane but no one in front...www.golfmk7.com
----------------
VW Golf mk7 forums
dickt
Sep 30, 2015
Mine has jammed on the brakes twice. Both times wrongly. It can't figure out what other vehicles are doing and why. A pain, but it will save accidents and lives.
----------------
Collision warning false positives when passing semi-trailer trucks
Jul 18, 2017
----------------
So in *millions* of deployments, there are a few issues, whereas in 500k Tesla there are a few of don't have issues
goRt
Active Member
A few out of millions v almost all out of 500k
Soda Popinski
Member
Klaatu barada nikto!
You're assuming that if such a patent existed, VAG offered to license it out. Very possible they would hold on to it for competitive reasons.
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