Elon tweets "pure vision" will solve phantom braking

[powertoold]

Yes, but Tesla sold these cars as capable of full FSD with the hardware delivered. They were the ones that advertised the HW was sufficient for future software updates.

As long as they continue to perform identically to "FSD cars" (HW3) for the functions the customer paid for, then there's no issue. Hence the reason people have been "upgraded" to HW3 when they pay for FSD. With the change, there are no damages due to Tesla's misrepresentation that HW2 was sufficient, because they make it right.

I'm tired of these "promised" discussions. If all these people paid big bucks for something they were promised and are so mad they didn't get it, then they should take it to court. I think very very few people are actually mad about it. There are the same few people who constantly whine about it, and most of them don't even own an fsd-optioned Tesla.

In this discussion regarding phantom braking, I'm just pointing out that the issue is essentially fixed with my hw3 car on the latest firmware.

By the way, my signature was from months ago when I still had phantom braking every 100-200 miles or so.

 

[powertoold]

Here's an interesting video from one of the FSD testers less than a month ago. It's basically a whole different kind of phantom braking based on vision, where it thinks a vehicle in an adjacent lane is actually in the Tesla's lane and AEB's to not hit it. This is city street, but it looks a lot like many multi-lane highway situations.

Bruh, that's not even a phantom brake. Ok we're done with this conversation.

That white truck *was* in its lane. However, during the fsd beta braking, the truck got too close to the car. The truck is very wide and the rear of the truck was encroaching on the fsd beta's lane. The human thing to do is to drive on the right side of the middle lane, but fsd beta chose to brake instead.

See the truck's rear on the lane line in the picture below:

 

[gearchruncher]

If all these people paid big bucks for something they were promised and are so mad they didn't get it, then they should take it to court. I think very very few people are actually mad about it. There are the same few people who constantly whine about it, and most of them don't even own an fsd-optioned Tesla.

Like I said- Tesla has actually done the right thing here so far. If you paid for features they can only deliver on HW3, they change your hardware. Otherwise, the features are available on HW2/2.5. There's no damages here so far. I was saying that if they start doing something, then it will be an issue (and I'll be filing in small claims almost immediately).

In this discussion regarding phantom braking, I'm just pointing out that the issue is essentially fixed with my hw3 car on the latest firmware.

That's awesome. I wonder if you'd feel different about it if someday Tesla said "we fixed phantom braking for all cars made 1 month after powertoolds car was made. Everyone before that can retrofit for $5000"

 

[powertoold]

That's awesome. I wonder if you'd feel different about it if someday Tesla said "we fixed phantom braking for all cars made 1 month after powertoolds car was made. Everyone before that can retrofit for $5000"

About a month or two after I bought my Model Y, Tesla reduced the price by like $2000(or 3? I forget). I'm outraged!!

 

[gearchruncher]

Bruh, that's not even a phantom brake. Ok we're done with this conversation.

So if you were driving down the highway, no AP on, and the vehicle braked for this event, you'd be like "yeah, I expected that, good job car!"?
No way- people will be complaining about a whole different kind of phantom braking if the new stuff brakes for this. That truck is not over the line, and stuff like this happens on the highway all the time and does not justify an emergency brake.

Hopefully the new vision stuff won't. I was just showing that Tesla's current vision stuff is pretty conservative and could easily be construed as phantom braking if it behaves like it did in the video. Let's all hope you're all correct and this is just something that happens when FSD beta is engaged.

 

[gearchruncher]

About a month or two after I bought my Model Y, Tesla reduced the price by like $2000(or 3? I forget). I'm outraged!!

Purchasing something and then having the price go down for others in the future is totally different than buying something and then being told you need to pay an additional amount to make it work the way it was advertised.

You're saying if you buy a car with a 4 year warranty and you go into the dealer because the radio stopped tuning in FM, and they tried to charge you $500 to fix it you'd be fine?

 

[powertoold]

So if you were driving down the highway, no AP on, and the vehicle braked for this event, you'd be like "yeah, I expected that, good job car!"?

The problem with your type of arguments, which we see often in this forum, is that you're already expecting perfection, while it's obviously a work in progress. Things improve. With Tesla, they actually improve very quickly, like AP a year ago vs today.

Obviously the braking in that fsd beta situation isn't ideal, but it's not phantom braking, as the car is just being overly cautious (or miscalculating how far it needs to be from it) about a super wide truck.

 

[Bladerskb]

I have trouble believing people with HW3 AP latest firmwares still get PB under bridges and overpasses... if you guys do get it, let us know your HW version and firmware. Perhaps get a dashcam video of it as well. Many instances of phantom braking aren't actually phantom, but the car responding to something in the environment, like an adjacent car.

5:00

 

[gearchruncher]

Obviously the braking in that fsd beta situation isn't ideal, but it's not phantom braking, as the car is just being overly cautious

Isn't normal phantom braking just the car being overly cautious for data it gets? I would not have slowed down for that truck, so that is a phantom brake.

With Tesla, they actually improve very quickly, like AP a year ago vs today.

It's probably a root of differences between people, but as an owner of a HW2 vehicle since December 2016, nothing about the rate of development and improvement feels fast. It took them 15+ months to even give me auto wipers that were advertised as part of the car when I bought it, and almost 2 years to reach AP parity with the AP1 car I test drove (they switched AP's on me post order). Years after that to build the features they listed as part of EAP.

 

[rxlawdude]

... totally different than buying something and then being told you need to pay an additional amount to make it work the way it was advertised.

Please tell us who was asked to pay more to make FSD work after purchasing FSD. Be specific.

 

[gearchruncher]

Please tell us who was asked to pay more to make FSD work after purchasing FSD. Be specific.

Nobody, because I never said that in context. But you know all of this. You're just mis-reading / ignoring things I clearly said on purpose.

Like I said- Tesla has actually done the right thing here so far. If you paid for features they can only deliver on HW3, they change your hardware. Otherwise, the features are available on HW2/2.5. There's no damages here so far. I was saying that if they start doing something, then it will be an issue (and I'll be filing in small claims almost immediately).

The context was:

In this discussion regarding phantom braking, I'm just pointing out that the issue is essentially fixed with my hw3 car on the latest firmware.

That's awesome. I wonder if you'd feel different about it if someday Tesla said "we fixed phantom braking for all cars made 1 month after powertoolds car was made. Everyone before that can retrofit for $5000"

It's easy for people with the latest HW to be totally cool with how things are going and act like everyone else is complaining, but it's worthwhile to consider another point of view.

Lookin' forward to another downvote after you get done responding to me about software, goods, use and sales taxes.

 

[Tam]

Elon previous said phantom braking (PB) was fixed. I didn't believe him then, and really, it wasn't "fixed," it's been reduced.

Now, with the latest HW3 AP firmwares, ~2021.4.15, I get much much less phantom braking. I haven't gotten it in the last ~2k miles, whereas I used to get it every 100-200 miles at the beginning of the year. To me, it's essentially "fixed" as of right now. I'm not sure how much more "fixed" it'll be with Tesla Vision (TM).

I have trouble believing people with HW3 AP latest firmwares still get PB under bridges and overpasses... if you guys do get it, let us know your HW version and firmware. Perhaps get a dashcam video of it as well.

Both of my 2017 Model X and 2018 Model 3 retrofitted with MCU 2 and HW3 V2021.4.15 still experience undesirable braking (braking with no obstacles observed by humans).

I agree that I notice that the random braking is less but definitely still there. I feel it's much less because I am used to it. It's a reflex for me to automatically compensate for the situation. However, my passengers are not and when they freak out "Why you applied the brakes?", that's when I realize that the problem is still there.

It happened for me today but I didn't know until I have to recall my driving and of course, I now remember that it did several times.

Many instances of phantom braking aren't actually phantom, but the car responding to something in the environment, like an adjacent car.

"Phantom" sounds like a ghost. Some people can't see a ghost but some insist they do. So just because I can't see obstacles to brake, that doesn't mean the machine can't either. The fact that it does means it's just like those people who insist they can see ghosts and react accordingly.

 

[Tam]

...I have trouble believing people with HW3 AP latest firmwares still get PB under bridges and overpasses... if you guys do get it, let us know your HW version and firmware. Perhaps get a dashcam video of it as well...

As mentioned by @Bladerskb , here's the footage of the youtube:

The overpass is ahead. The car was accelerating to 63MPH:

As it gets nearer, the car also decelerated from 63MPH to 55MPH and the youtuber intervened and apologized for the incidence blaming on the sun:

Hmmm.... Is blaming the god sun better than blaming the phantom?

 

[drtimhill]

No, I don't think that is correct. My understanding is that phantom braking is caused by radar because radar does not detect height. So a radar bounce from an overpass was misinterpreted as being from an object in front of the car instead of above the car. So the car brakes.

I suspect its also responsible for some of the peculiar slow-downs the car makes in FSD beta when making turns .. as the car makes the turn and the radar "sweeps" across the field of view, it picks up a spurious signal, and the car pauses to evaluate (and see if its moving) before continuing the turn.

 

[emmz0r]

Yes, because the are doing totally different things.
"Production code" = Highway AP. They believe they have highway AP solved using only vision.
"Beta" is "city streets". This is all new stuff that none of us have. It's on a totally different cycle. It also reverts to "production" highway code when on the highway. There could be more cases they need to solve on city streets to release it as it's a more complex task.

And it's not a "feature." Done right, the customer has no idea the change occurred, except hopefully less "bugs" like phantom braking. I don't really care how Tesla senses the world, I care how well they drive through it. It's more part of the fundamental way AP senses, not how it behaves. So "production" AP is not getting a feature before the beta, it's just getting an architecture change.

Nothing is "solved" in highway AP the way it behaves now, radar or not.
So removing the radar means they have the the new camera depth perception code running on "birds eye" in "regular" AP now then?

 

[powertoold]

As it gets nearer, the car also decelerated from 63MPH to 55MPH and the youtuber intervened and apologized for the incidence blaming on the sun

That was very minor, akin to a human driver accidentally letting off the accelerator and regen kick in for a second or two. I would classify that as phantom braking though.

I also don't think AI addict intervened in any way there. At least he doesn't mention stepping on the accelerator.

 

[sperkin]

Some phantom braking are probably based on maps too. There is a spot where my car on HW3 has been phantom braking for over a year. Its on a newly made carpool lane. That spot used to be the shoulder.

The car travels fine on the right carpool lane (old lane), but brakes every time in the new lane ( left lane). When I see anothet Tesla, I would change lane and watch the other Tesla next to me brake hard.

Many times people think I'm brake checking them. I really hope these random braking would stop with the next FSD update. Car should use the full width of the lane too. Not keep it centered 100% of the time as well. My car brakes hard sometimes next to big trucks that riding the white lines. As a human, we shift left a bit. The car next to me will also shift lane. We all get past then center the car again. Human drivers are fluid. This is why I turn off AP quite a lot. Ap is great in LA gridlock traffic, but at 75-80 with mixed cars doing 55mph to 90mph, AP is not all that great in squeezing into gaps like a human would.

 

[powertoold]

Many times people think I'm brake checking them. I really hope these random braking would stop with the next FSD update.

If it's a map issue, then probably not. I think once Tesla Vision(TM) achieves high accuracy, Tesla will deploy their own cloud-based mapping system, allowing cars to automatically send mapping updates to the cloud (like Mobileye REMS but better).

 

[sperkin]

If it's a map issue, then probably not. I think once Tesla Vision(TM) achieves high accuracy, Tesla will deploy their own cloud-based mapping system, allowing cars to automatically send mapping updates to the cloud (like Mobileye REMS but better).

If it's map, Tesla needs updated maps often. There's a ton of construction in LA and Orange county. They are expanding the carpool lanes so many shoulders are getting converted on the left and right.

There was a shoulder/exit ramp that was closed and converted to a travel lane and my car would brake to 45mph because It thought I would be taking the ramp. Even though it's flattened, coveted, and railed off. The lane looks like any other right lane, the car would brake to 45mph. 1st time was jarring because I was doing 75mph. It took over a year for the car to stop doing that. I reported it 5 days a week every night coming home from work. I'm not sure if it was a map update or firmware that fixed it. One day it just stopped and it never happened again.

 

[powertoold]

If it's map, Tesla needs updated maps often. There's a ton of construction in LA and Orange county. They are expanding the carpool lanes so many shoulders are getting converted on the left and right.

Yup, that's why Tesla must implement some cloud maps feature, but it's contingent on vision achieving very high accuracy. As any Tesla cars pass by road conditions, they'll be updating the maps, and we all benefit.