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Thanks for the info. Great job as I know how hard some people found it to actually send you the document even though we'd said early on we would. <blush>. Still it squeaked in by the deadline.
I wonder how this 39 ratios to the silent majority who will just vote with their feet and not buy? At least 10:1 and more likely 100:1 in my guess.
Worse even for Tesla will be the larger group who are new to EV, will not understand the issues, will buy the car and then will discover the slow home charging without 3-phase. That group of unhappy customers will be very bad for Tesla.
I wonder how this 39 ratios to the silent majority who will just vote with their feet and not buy? At least 10:1 and more likely 100:1 in my guess.
Worse even for Tesla will be the larger group who are new to EV, will not understand the issues, will buy the car and then will discover the slow home charging without 3-phase. That group of unhappy customers will be very bad for Tesla.
@AndrewBissell: I agree, hopefully Tesla thinks about it the same way.
I gave the dutch representative a call today, he also forwarded my letter to Elon's assistent, so hopefully it has reached him by now.
He thought it was a good letter with a clear message. As soon as he has an update he'd call me.
I gave the dutch representative a call today, he also forwarded my letter to Elon's assistent, so hopefully it has reached him by now.
He thought it was a good letter with a clear message. As soon as he has an update he'd call me.
As everyone around here is already bound to know, I fully endorse Widodh's letter. I'm very sorry I didn't see this thread before it was too late.
However, before I saw this thread I again contacted Tesla's director of sales and marketing i Europe expressing my concerns, and included an explanation which was very much like widodh's.
I am an example of a customer who will reserve a Model S instantly whenever Tesla announces support for three phase, mennekes and the ordinary red 400 V CEE connectors present practically on every street corner. My wife and I have the money ready and have made the decision to buy without even having seen the car, proper three phase support is the only remaining obstacle.
I absolutely require at the very least 16 A, 400 V. I can't justify spending that much money on a car that can't use three phase, and all of the phases. "Support" for three phase through an adapter that just leaves L2 and L3 disconnected does not count.
I'm not sure I'll buy unless it can take 32 A, I'd have to think about it.
Holy smoke. When will designers realize that functionality trumps looks for all things that will actually be used, as opposed to just looked at?
This bit of information did nothing to abate my disgust towards designers of beautiful but hopelessly impractical things. Dropping three phase triples the charge times. If Tesla's decision makers rate something as insignificant as the "Apple-like" sleekness of the plug above my basic need to feed electrons into the car quickly with the infrastructure available to me, then I will simply not buy their product.
However, before I saw this thread I again contacted Tesla's director of sales and marketing i Europe expressing my concerns, and included an explanation which was very much like widodh's.
I am an example of a customer who will reserve a Model S instantly whenever Tesla announces support for three phase, mennekes and the ordinary red 400 V CEE connectors present practically on every street corner. My wife and I have the money ready and have made the decision to buy without even having seen the car, proper three phase support is the only remaining obstacle.
I absolutely require at the very least 16 A, 400 V. I can't justify spending that much money on a car that can't use three phase, and all of the phases. "Support" for three phase through an adapter that just leaves L2 and L3 disconnected does not count.
I'm not sure I'll buy unless it can take 32 A, I'd have to think about it.
Holy smoke. When will designers realize that functionality trumps looks for all things that will actually be used, as opposed to just looked at?
This bit of information did nothing to abate my disgust towards designers of beautiful but hopelessly impractical things. Dropping three phase triples the charge times. If Tesla's decision makers rate something as insignificant as the "Apple-like" sleekness of the plug above my basic need to feed electrons into the car quickly with the infrastructure available to me, then I will simply not buy their product.
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The connector design is not as good as Tesla think. Being placed in the open, it can be easily be an target of vandalism. Also the mechanism which opens the flap while approaching the socket is complicated and an unnecessary source of problems.
design has to follow the (needed) form and not reverse. The current design of the plug/socket makes it impossible to give access to more then one phase, despite the fact, that the two onboard charger of 10kW each could be employed easily on two different phases.
This would double the charging power and cut the time into have. With a third onBoard charger full 3-phase could be achieved. If Tesla would be really supportive, they would find space for a third onBoard Charger.
Is 3-phase wide spread in Norway? I heard, that the 3-phase comes without N-line?
design has to follow the (needed) form and not reverse. The current design of the plug/socket makes it impossible to give access to more then one phase, despite the fact, that the two onboard charger of 10kW each could be employed easily on two different phases.
This would double the charging power and cut the time into have. With a third onBoard charger full 3-phase could be achieved. If Tesla would be really supportive, they would find space for a third onBoard Charger.
Is 3-phase wide spread in Norway? I heard, that the 3-phase comes without N-line?
Or better yet, do what Renault has done - integrate the charger into the PEM, so the PEM's rectifier, voltage regulator and cooling system can be reused directly for charging from the three phase grid. High power and very low parts cost.
Every single Norwegian home has three phase service. The only exception is houses that have been split into two or three apartments - each may have a single phase. But even in this case there is three phase present in the building.
Much of Norway unfortunately has 230 V three phase isolated terra in older installations. This is also three phase, but each 230 V single phase circuit is connected across two of the phases, instead of between phase and neutral. In this type of installation, the neutral wire is not pulled all the way to the home, the real ground is used as neutral instead. Only the unbalanced part of the load goes into the neutral (i.e. real ground in IT nets).
Everywhere a new transformer and the buildings it will supply are installed/built at the same time, 400 V three phase TN is used, so this voltage is also widespread, and is increasing. Most larger buildings like shopping centers etc that have dedicated transformers have 400 V. Some old IT installations are also upgraded to 400 V TN, my guess is that EVs will speed this up. Lack of 400 V three phase in the garage can be fixed with a 230/400 V transformer. These cost around 1-2 k euro, and there's always a few used ones for sale for less. Example: a 20 kVA unit, 850 euro. That's a fairly large one, 50 A input.
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This thread is specifically about widodh's letter and possibly Tesla's response. Tangential discussions should go any any number of existing threads.
I has been almost three weeks now since Tesla got the letter. I would have appreciated it if I got a response of some kind.
Something like "Hi Wido, thanks for your letter. We can't give you a formal response now, but we just wanted to let you know we got it"
On the other hand, should Tesla be honored that potential customers are going to such lengths to give them feedback? Most customers will just NOT buy a product when it doesn't meet their demands, but we do a lot to help Tesla. That should mean something to them.
Something like "Hi Wido, thanks for your letter. We can't give you a formal response now, but we just wanted to let you know we got it"
On the other hand, should Tesla be honored that potential customers are going to such lengths to give them feedback? Most customers will just NOT buy a product when it doesn't meet their demands, but we do a lot to help Tesla. That should mean something to them.
EV_de
Model SP10/XP9 EU ZOE#47
Just sent out a little Tweet: Twitter
I don't expect a full statement from Tesla or anything (yet), if they are discussing this internally, I'm happy with that. But a "Thank you for your letter" would be really nice. Just let me know you got the package and read it.
Never the less, the letter is also on its way to Tesla EU in the UK, without the endorsements, but with a picture of all the endorsements and a small note about why I'm sending it to the UK.
I don't expect a full statement from Tesla or anything (yet), if they are discussing this internally, I'm happy with that. But a "Thank you for your letter" would be really nice. Just let me know you got the package and read it.
Never the less, the letter is also on its way to Tesla EU in the UK, without the endorsements, but with a picture of all the endorsements and a small note about why I'm sending it to the UK.
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