Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Let's hope you get your car on Aug 22nd and that the delay is nothing serious...
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EU Signature Angst
- Thread starter Pilotech
- Start date
Let's hope you get your car on Aug 22nd and that the delay is nothing serious...
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Looking at the statuses in the (List of EU-reservations) I am starting to get more and more pissed off.
Why is Tesla already producing regular P's for not only Norway and Switzerland, but also for Germany and Denmark, while it is still 2-3 weeks before some Signatures from The Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, etc. will be built?! And not just some P's, but hundreds of P's, as far as P1718!! By the time they start building these Sigs (which are not even late Sigs!) they will have reached P2500 or so.
I know they promised first deliveries would be to Norway, because they are the most important European market, but is that a reason to have P's from Norway pass Sigs from other European countries by the hundreds? And for Switzerland (and Norway) the argument was that they could be delivered more swiftly. But I also see P's from Germany (381) and Denmark (553) under construction, and they take the slower route through Tilburg for sub-assembly just like other EU-cars. Why are those P's produced weeks before Sigs from other EU-countries??
This has nothing to do with batching, this is doling out favors, at the expense of others. I am very disappointed. I thought Tesla was about doing things right...
Why is Tesla already producing regular P's for not only Norway and Switzerland, but also for Germany and Denmark, while it is still 2-3 weeks before some Signatures from The Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, etc. will be built?! And not just some P's, but hundreds of P's, as far as P1718!! By the time they start building these Sigs (which are not even late Sigs!) they will have reached P2500 or so.
I know they promised first deliveries would be to Norway, because they are the most important European market, but is that a reason to have P's from Norway pass Sigs from other European countries by the hundreds? And for Switzerland (and Norway) the argument was that they could be delivered more swiftly. But I also see P's from Germany (381) and Denmark (553) under construction, and they take the slower route through Tilburg for sub-assembly just like other EU-cars. Why are those P's produced weeks before Sigs from other EU-countries??
This has nothing to do with batching, this is doling out favors, at the expense of others. I am very disappointed. I thought Tesla was about doing things right...
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I cannot see the rationale behind such a way of doing things. Who at TM can we address to raise our concern and perhaps get an explanation?
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
Like I said, no one (with a clear mind) should expect that Euro Sig cars would be shipped before US production cars, and I think no one, not even the OP, was talking about that.
What angers him (and I am sure many other Euro Sig buyers) is the fact that (even in their respective markets), the won't get their cars before general production cars in their markets, due to the fact that there are just not that many Euro Sigs at all (what was it, 500 Euro Sigs in total? That's one week of production!). So assuming that Tesla isn't totally stupid, they will ship as many cars as possible at the same time, so perhaps quite a few Euro Sigs will share the space on the transport ship with their Euro production cousins, being delivered then at about the same time in each respective market. Tesla certainly won't hold delivery of Euro production cars back until all Euro Sigs have been delivered. At least I can't imagine them doing that.
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In Norway we now have GP vehicle customers with sequence numbers as high as 223 reporting that they have been contacted by Tesla for delivery between 22Aug and 5Sep. Me, as Sig#4 have a confirmed delivery date of 27Aug. Some sigs have not been contacted by Tesla at all yet. Seems arbitrary. Not sure what to think about that..
That's what I am talking about.
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Of course, because they paid an absurd amount of money for that priviledge, some years in advance!
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Which seems to become a recurring motive.
What I don't understand at all is they are doing approx 400 Cars a week, why they can't do 200 US and 200 EU Cars for 2 1/2 weeks then at least all Sig's would be ready at the same time. While mine, a Signature, is still sourcing parts with no change since the beginning of July some of the production cars have the state that they are ready for delivery. That's the awful thing on it. And all production's have not paid 30k € upfront.
I'm not saying you said this but did Tesla ever say 'we will hold all deliveries for 3 months in order to give you time to savor your Signature experience and ensure not a single production car gets delivered before a Sig in all of Europe?' or something to that effect? They did promise the car 'first' which in most cases is meaning little to no time difference which I understand is frustrating. Ordering a Sig (I waited 3.5 years) got me in front of the line but was less than two months if I had just kept my original production slot. I and others had plenty of time to move back to the production line (with a possible delay of course but if the $5,000 extra no longer seemed worth it no one was forced to sign the paperwork). I realize it might be frustrating that they are batched so close together but what I still don't understand is does someone else's enjoyment at getting their Model S production car make the enjoyment of your Signature Model S any less?
There are 1,000 EU Sigs I believe (500 LHD and 500 RHD).
I realize it is a much larger deposit for not a lot of benefit but you still get the car promised and generally before the production cars in your market. The EU market is so vast that there will be obviously some production cars in one country getting their car at around the same time as some Sigs in another country.
Should I be angry that as a Signature customer for 3.5 years Tesla didn't hold off until mid 2014 on the P85+ or the cold weather package, parking sensors and other options that EU Sigs had the option to order that I didn't even though some waited a year or more less than I did? There are some advantages to having the EU rollout a year later too.
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AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
Well the options on the Euro cars apply to all Model S's, not just the Sigs. And of course one could have stepped back to production almost anytime in the process. But is that what this is about?
I think the main reason why people are angry is because Tesla promised (or made one believe) that someone who ordered a Sig and paid a very large amount of money up front (goodwill so to speak), would benefit in a certain (and not too small) way. One of the main promises was that Sig buyers would get their vehicle first (implying significantly before general production in their respective market), which now on the whole doesn't seem to be the case. Apart from that, a Sig didn't mean much extra value. On the contrary, at least in the US for example some options that general production cars offered were not available for Sigs. Not sure if that was the case in Europe either, but I think it was.
Add to that the sometimes lousy communications policy and you get quite frustrated buyers. Especially in a demanding market like Europe, where Tesla is still very unknown, having negative word of mouth propaganda could be disastrous. Because if there is one thing that buyers over here don't like it's when companies don't keep their promises.
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That is correct that the options are available for Sig and non-sig cars. Just trying to point out that if people want to be angry about the entire Sig issue that US owners who waited a long time as well paid the same big deposit but got a much earlier version of the car.
I agree Tesla's communication had not been great. Tesla never implied that the Sigs would be delivered 'significantly' ahead of the production cars, just that they would be first. That could mean a day or a week. There is some overlap with the production cars due to various countries it looks like and Tesla should absolutely have been more clear on this but in the end, everyone ordering a Sig car is getting a Sig car with optional Sig red (really only compelling reason to get it), more interior leather and optional white leather. Delivery 'first' or up front also happens but Tesla overplayed this advantage especially for early reservation holders. For someone coming late to the game the Sig tax for early delivery is much more valuable.
People with early Sig reservations like myself should get their car very early in the delivery process for their respective markets and emails from Tesla should go out if there are delays. There never was any understanding on my part that there would be some long pause after Signature production should I could enjoy the exclusivity of the Model S while the early production people had to wait even longer. We've all been waiting or waited a long time. We should all be happy that they are rolling out the cars so quickly. Does it suck that the voluntary Signature car you signed up for didn't get you a much earlier delivery that people who put down less money? Maybe but you still get the car that was promised to you with the above mentioned paint, leather options and the Sig badging.
No one expects Tesla to pause production, no one expects Tesla to hold up production of P's because not all Sigs have been built.
What we do expect - and were led to believe - is that Sigs would be delivered first, not just per country but for Europe as a whole. Ofcourse it's not possible to deliver all Signatures at the same time to all the far corners of Europe, and because of that there could have been some overlap in the delivery of late Sigs and early P's. But delivery is not the problem here! The problem is that Tesla has stretched out production of Sigs over a period of 1,5 month or more.
They could have produced all Signatures in 1-2 weeks time, and immediately moved on to P's. But they didn't do that. They stretched out production of all Sigs, from early July to mid/late August, and put approx. 1,000 P's in between. This way some P's are being produced one month ahead of Sigs!!
To me this is unacceptable. Tesla hasn't even tried to keep its promise of first delivery for Sigs. It went right out the door once the orders were signed. They put all the Sigs and P's in a big bag and pulled out numbers.
What we do expect - and were led to believe - is that Sigs would be delivered first, not just per country but for Europe as a whole. Ofcourse it's not possible to deliver all Signatures at the same time to all the far corners of Europe, and because of that there could have been some overlap in the delivery of late Sigs and early P's. But delivery is not the problem here! The problem is that Tesla has stretched out production of Sigs over a period of 1,5 month or more.
They could have produced all Signatures in 1-2 weeks time, and immediately moved on to P's. But they didn't do that. They stretched out production of all Sigs, from early July to mid/late August, and put approx. 1,000 P's in between. This way some P's are being produced one month ahead of Sigs!!
To me this is unacceptable. Tesla hasn't even tried to keep its promise of first delivery for Sigs. It went right out the door once the orders were signed. They put all the Sigs and P's in a big bag and pulled out numbers.
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I'm a little confused. I just looked through the EUDeliveryStatus sheet. Obviously the Pre-MVPA dates are pretty useless at this stage and it's clear that Tesla is no longer manufacturing in VIN order, so I looked at the currently estimated deliveries. I saw exactly one P with an estimated delivery before october. Am I missing something? I'm sure there must be other evidence that a ton of P's are coming sooner, but I'm not sure where it is. Given the constraints of manufacturing it's obviously impossible to guaranty that all sigs will be delivered before productions, but certainly at least 95% of them should be, I agree. This was the case in North America.
The current estimated deliveries are not much to go by anymore; those dates are often not up-to-date.
It's better to look at the status of a car, and then you will see that there are already a lot of P's under construction (from Norway, Switzerland, Germany and Denmark). I cannot imagine those cars are going to be parked in Freemont for a few weeks to wait until all Signatures have rolled off the production line (Sigs are being built until at least Mid-August), before they get shipped. That would be too expensive and senseless.
There have also been reports of some P's getting a firm delivery date in August, with some Signatures getting a firm delivery date in September. So it's very unfortunate that Tesla decided not to respect the one thing that really separated the Sigs from the P's (besides the color Sig Red, which is now becoming pretty expensive).
And the increased interior leather and Sig badging. Other very minor differences. One year on connectivity included in the US. There are minor differences. A few weeks difference is very minor. You might even have people who reserved over two years before a later sig getting their car around the same time or a week or two before.
Is every market in the EU not different with their rules and regulations? You say Tesla shouldn't hold up production as that would be expensive but do they have room in Europe to store a few hundred cars until every last Sig is delivered? What is someone goes on vacation for a few weeks as a Sig customer and doesn't accept delivery right away. Should that halt the entire process?
I understand the desire to get the car right away as almost everyone who has it loves driving it. I don't see how a few weeks difference diminishes the value of your car or your enjoyment.
Tesla should definitely be more clear about how the rollout is happening among the various markets but unless hundreds of production cars are getting delivered before Sigs in the same market, we should probably wait to see what actually happens. The delivery status on Tesla's website has historically been very inaccurate so using that as a definitive guide might lead to false conclusions.
Is every market in the EU not different with their rules and regulations? You say Tesla shouldn't hold up production as that would be expensive but do they have room in Europe to store a few hundred cars until every last Sig is delivered? What is someone goes on vacation for a few weeks as a Sig customer and doesn't accept delivery right away. Should that halt the entire process?
I understand the desire to get the car right away as almost everyone who has it loves driving it. I don't see how a few weeks difference diminishes the value of your car or your enjoyment.
Tesla should definitely be more clear about how the rollout is happening among the various markets but unless hundreds of production cars are getting delivered before Sigs in the same market, we should probably wait to see what actually happens. The delivery status on Tesla's website has historically been very inaccurate so using that as a definitive guide might lead to false conclusions.
I am sorry to repeat this but there never was anything from Tesla making me to assume "first delivery" for the EU signatures. The term "introduced to markets first" really can mean anything. I closely followed the first months of U.S. production. It became rather clear to me that Tesla did what they stated: reservation sequence number is your slot number for being asked to finalize. After that came the drama of batching for production and geographic delivery, which certainly stirred up things further.
Then Elon visited Norway this spring, and stated that Norway would receive the first cars in Europe. I don't remember if a reason was given. easier tax/toll regime, tremendous support there? If the latter, what's wrong with delivering the car to your biggest fans?
What completely escapes my mind is to complain that some general production cars might be delivered to Norway, while someone in central Europe is still waiting for their signature. As if that taints your car? That is a far-fetched, very strange concept to me. Nota bene, this is speculation and far from happening. Even the first Sig cars haven't been delivered yet.
Well, there are lots of valid arguments. I really don't care much if some Ps get their cars sooner and for sure I don't want to have anybody to wait longer for no reason. We're all in the same boat here in Europe we just want to get our cars. I notice myself that I slowly really getting impatient. In the grand scheme a couple of weeks don't mean much. However I have to say that Tesla really has actively market the Signature models in a way that empasized the fact that you'll get Sigs significantly earlier. I remember that I was considering a non Sig color in January and I was told if I change to Production I will get the car late summer instead of spring.
Now it turns out that I get my Sig end of August instead of probably September if I'd ordered a Production. And that just doesn't feel ok for me. Don't now what the cure is, probably I'll don't care anymore once I have the car
Now it turns out that I get my Sig end of August instead of probably September if I'd ordered a Production. And that just doesn't feel ok for me. Don't now what the cure is, probably I'll don't care anymore once I have the car
For scenarios like this, the customer chose a delay. That's quite a different situation.
Not necessarily. People plan vacations way in advance and the delivery dates are a shifting target. People don't seem to care why a production car is delivered before a Signature, just that it happens. For every single Sig to be delivered before any production car in all of Europe gets delivered, even odd scenarios like this would need to be cleared up or explained to everyone with a blog post to make sure they are not upset. After all, a dilution of the Signature brand by any amount upsets some people even if it isn't their car.
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That's a shared responsibility issue with Tesla. Tesla for having shifting dates is sometimes the root cause, sometimes not.
My point was that many (most? all?) of those complaining aren't talking about situations where the owner deferred the delivery date (for whatever reason).
I agree with you. I'm talking about a situation where the owner can't accept delivery because they are not in the country. Others have said that even a single production car being delivered before a Sig is a violation of their trust and is to not be tolerated. That's a tall order is all I'm saying. There will invariably be some overlap and someone will get upset. Tesla should try and minimize the overlap as much as possible.
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