I think ChargeFox have got batteries at at least a few of their ultrarapid charger sites
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Evie EV charging networks
- Thread starter baillies
- Start date
Chuq
Active Member
All the commercial operators are losing money, even at 40-60 c/kWh, even with grants.
We need to get out of the mindset of "urgh, I'm not using them because they sooo expensive." They're not expensive - that's the reality of fast charging/ultra-rapid charging. It costs money to build and maintain a site that is capable of delivery electricity that quickly.
They're doing this to get in early now so when EVs take up increases, they're already established and will become profitable businesses.
We need to get out of the mindset of "urgh, I'm not using them because they sooo expensive." They're not expensive - that's the reality of fast charging/ultra-rapid charging. It costs money to build and maintain a site that is capable of delivery electricity that quickly.
They're doing this to get in early now so when EVs take up increases, they're already established and will become profitable businesses.
Chuq
Active Member
*Some* sites can exceed $1M, the average across the industry is closer to $500k. US$170k is A$235k, add installation the battery is more than half the cost again of the average site.
My bad for coming across as complaining they are too expensive. I am just looking for a solution to the demand charges while also increasing grid stability by reducing sudden high power draws.
I don't really care how much they charge at the ultra-fast charge stations. Just as long as they are equivalent to ICE or less, which even at 60c/kWh they are still on par with efficient ICE vehicles. If I'm on the highway I will pick a 60c/kWh 350kW charger over a cheaper 50kW charger every single time.
Just build the damn things please!!
Chuq
Active Member
Wasn't targetted at you, just a general response to something I hear frequently!
ICE or less is a good benchmark, and can vary based on physical location - e.g.:
- The station at Kempton in Tassie that charges $1/kWh. We were happy to use it, since it existed, until an Evie 350kW station opened 18 km away that charged 60c/kWh.
- The new Biofil charger at Caiguna on the Nullarbor will (I think) cost $1/kWh. But no complaints there. It's on the bloody Nullarbor!
So two stations that charge $1/kWh but the response is understandably very different.
ICE or less is a good benchmark, and can vary based on physical location - e.g.:
- The station at Kempton in Tassie that charges $1/kWh. We were happy to use it, since it existed, until an Evie 350kW station opened 18 km away that charged 60c/kWh.
- The new Biofil charger at Caiguna on the Nullarbor will (I think) cost $1/kWh. But no complaints there. It's on the bloody Nullarbor!
So two stations that charge $1/kWh but the response is understandably very different.
Agreed! It was only 3-4 years ago when you couldn't drive a (non-Tesla EV) from Melbourne to Sydney. Today we are about whether we'd prefer the 60c Evie sites vs the 40c Chargefox sites vs the free NRMA 50 kW sites. Whichever you choose its a massive improvement!
We're still at the early stages of EV and EV chargers rollout.
Over time as utilisation increases to more like a petrol station, the fixed costs (site, infrastructure, installation) and kinda-fixed (demand charges) will be amortised over more and more individual sessions.
So the price will get closer to the variable cost (electricity charges).. much like the petrol price closely mimics the wholesale fuel cost plus taxes.
Quite possibly this might mean that the charging price varies by time of day much like ToU prices.
Charging operators who charge too high a price or have maintenance issues will fall by the wayside.
For the meantime it's just a market share grab and growth curve in an emerging market.
Over time as utilisation increases to more like a petrol station, the fixed costs (site, infrastructure, installation) and kinda-fixed (demand charges) will be amortised over more and more individual sessions.
So the price will get closer to the variable cost (electricity charges).. much like the petrol price closely mimics the wholesale fuel cost plus taxes.
Quite possibly this might mean that the charging price varies by time of day much like ToU prices.
Charging operators who charge too high a price or have maintenance issues will fall by the wayside.
For the meantime it's just a market share grab and growth curve in an emerging market.
Zoltrix77
Member
I agree, the situation will change overtime. Installing a convential fuel station costs a fortune too, its just that they currently have a lot more customers.
Not once have I begrudged the prices I’ve had to pay at a DCFC.
Evie is a bit on the expensive side compared to the others, but I am so glad that they have a site in Taree which I’ve used quite a few times. It’s conveniently located and the closest DCFCs are Tesla at Cassegrain 80km away or 30 km in the other direction to the NRMA 50 kW unit at Nabiac.
I’ve used Nabiac once but 50 kW doesn’t really cut it any more when there is a superfast alternative, and there’s only one stall there which creates occupancy/fault anxiety. It gets a lot of check-ins though, way more than Evie Taree does, so people clearly like “free”. Happy to leave that one for the LEAF drivers.
At Karuah, Chargefox has two 350 kW units and there is a 50 kW free NRMA one. I always use the 350 kW one - happy to pay for that (but I also take advantage of the NRMA discount
)
Evie is a bit on the expensive side compared to the others, but I am so glad that they have a site in Taree which I’ve used quite a few times. It’s conveniently located and the closest DCFCs are Tesla at Cassegrain 80km away or 30 km in the other direction to the NRMA 50 kW unit at Nabiac.
I’ve used Nabiac once but 50 kW doesn’t really cut it any more when there is a superfast alternative, and there’s only one stall there which creates occupancy/fault anxiety. It gets a lot of check-ins though, way more than Evie Taree does, so people clearly like “free”. Happy to leave that one for the LEAF drivers.
At Karuah, Chargefox has two 350 kW units and there is a 50 kW free NRMA one. I always use the 350 kW one - happy to pay for that (but I also take advantage of the NRMA discount
)
Maximillan
Member
I recently went through this exact same thought process when going through Albury / Wodonga. Head to the free NRMA one that's close to lunch or stop at the Wodonga Supercharger first and pay for the certainty of no hassles. I decided to pay for the certainty of getting a fast charge.
I don't think the 50kW one is free.
It's not an NRMA owned unit, it is a ChargeFox owned unit with an NRMA (and other) logos on it.
And to keep this on topic...
Evie have no units between Sydney and Taree... hope they change that soon.
Good spot would be the BP station at Beresfield as you come off the end of Pacific/Newcastle expressway, except if you are going south. How do you get into and out of that BP if you are going south?.
Edit: Thought I'd check....
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This may sounds strange, but I really wish NRMA would end the "free" charging as it is skewing the market.
If anything, it's holding back the infrastructure rollout. It's a deterrent to commercial providers investing in Infrastructure. Why would they spent $1M building a charging station when there's a "free" NRMA charger nearby?
While I agree with you, it doesn't seem to be the case in QLD. The Queensland Electric Super Highway isn't free (20c/kWh) but all the commercial companies (except Evie in Townsville) seem to have decided since the QESH is there, they don't need to provide any infrastructure.
Admittedly though, without the QESH you can't really do any highway travel outside SEQ.
It's the same underlying issue. 20c isn't free but it's almost certainly at or below cost for the commercial operators. It's therefore a big deterrent to investing in a $1m multi-stall fast charging site in the same area.
This post suggested QESH may soon be increasing to 30c/kWh which is probably getting closer to a commercial rate (noting that they are 50kW DC and 22kW AC sites)
teslamotorsclub.com
Queensland Electric Highway
I'm personally hoping for more than one stall - they really need to add stalls to at least some of the existing ones too. They (whoever "they" are) will know by now the traffic through each location and by implication, how often people have to wait. While more than one stall would be great...
teslamotorsclub.com
I’ve often thought that would be a good spot for a DCFC. Another good location would be the highway service centre at Heatherbrae proper, 1 km up the road from the Tesla SC. You’d have to think both are on the radars of Evie and ChargeFox. Why Tesla never went there in the first place is a mystery.
This section of road though will be bypassed by 2028 with the M1 extension from Black Hill to Raymond Terrace, and will be the final “missing link” of freeway from Sydney to Brisbane to be built.
Not the final missing link. Coffs Harbour, and the missing link from the F3 into Sydney (they built the link towards the M7 but not the link towards Sydney), still remain.
It’s interesting when you look at some of the big bridges built around Sydney that were part of freeway plans. The Gladesville bridge was built for the F3 (along with much of Burns Bay Road). Captain Cook bridge was built for the F6 (hence the dogleg at the northern end, and the long linear park from Sans Souci straight to the Airport).
When they built NorthConnex, would it have killed them to also build the stretch southbound towards Kissing Point Road/A6?
Oh, wait, Evie Networks thread. Never mind.
It’s interesting when you look at some of the big bridges built around Sydney that were part of freeway plans. The Gladesville bridge was built for the F3 (along with much of Burns Bay Road). Captain Cook bridge was built for the F6 (hence the dogleg at the northern end, and the long linear park from Sans Souci straight to the Airport).
When they built NorthConnex, would it have killed them to also build the stretch southbound towards Kissing Point Road/A6?
Oh, wait, Evie Networks thread. Never mind.
The Coffs Harbour bypass is due to be completed in 2027, a year before the Beresfield/Heatherbrae bypass is due to be finished. So that M1 extension will be the final “missing link” to be built as I stated.
There are no plans to extend the M1 south from Wahroonga to the CBD via Gladesville. That functionality has been replaced by NorthConnex and the M2 (even though it is more indirect). All the road corridors and reservations that existed 40 years ago for that original route (some bits were built as you mention) no longer exist. Therefore I don’t think you can claim that as a ”missing link” since NorthConnex replaced it.
Oh yeah, Evie thread.
At Karuah, Chargefox has two 350 kW units and there is a 50 kW free NRMA one. I always use the 350 kW one - happy to pay for that (but I also take advantage of the NRMA discount
A vaguely tangential question, but what is your strategy when going to a Chargefox unit like this in terms of preconditioning, since in Australia the car doesn’t recognise third party suppliers? Set the nav for Heatherbrae but go to Karuah? Seems like that’d be annoying. Just not precondition and take the rate hit?
Tritium 350s are faster than a v2 supercharger, even when you precondition.
Though you can always set the GPS to a nearby supercharger and ignore the directions.
Though you can always set the GPS to a nearby supercharger and ignore the directions.
