First L3 Self Driving Car - Audi A8 world premieres in Barcelona

[redy]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Audi is promising that this will do what Tesla has been able to do for a while, except Audi is taking responsibility thereby making it level 3 while Tesla placed the onus on the driver with the nags, making it level 2. Right?

 

[malcolm]

Lol you are kidding right? You need to revisit page 3.

Level 0-1 is hands on
Level 2 is hands off (adjust radio, plug in charger, etc)
Level 3 is eyes off (you can watch movies, play games, read book/newspaper/internet, not pay attention, etc)
Level 4 is mind off (you can sleep, not be in the driver seat, etc)


I applaud supercruise for being the first true L2 car

....so what's Level 5 ? Is that when the car takes over the driver?

Actually, scrub that. That's just the usual petrol-head/gass-hole/watt-nut stuff.

Also, isn't your applause premature given that it's due out this fall?

The system, which was designed to promote driver safety and convenience, will be available this fall

Cadillac Super Cruise™ Sets the Standard for Hands-Free Highway Driving

 

[NerdUno]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Audi is promising that this will do what Tesla has been able to do for a while, except Audi is taking responsibility thereby making it level 3 while Tesla placed the onus on the driver with the nags, making it level 2. Right?

You forgot the hands on the wheel part. Audi=no, Tesla=always. Also a slightly improved driver takeover response window: 15 seconds for Audi vs. .001 seconds for Tesla.

 

[mspohr]

You forgot the hands on the wheel part. Audi=no, Tesla=always. Also a slightly improved driver takeover response window: 15 seconds for Audi vs. .001 seconds for Tesla.

So... Audi will be able to predict 15 seconds in advance that it won't be able to function?

 

[stopcrazypp]

So... Audi will be able to predict 15 seconds in advance that it won't be able to function?

The warning for L3 is 8-10 seconds, not 15 seconds. Given the speed limitations (37 mph) it'll probably be able to do that, although we will see how it works from reviews when the function comes out in the real world.
Audi's A8 self-driving tech depends on regulatory changes

The 15 seconds refers to the nag interval for the L2 system already out in the 2017 A4 and Q7.
Piloted driving - Audi Newsroom

Again this is where confusion happens.

L2: nag interval means it will only operate at most that interval; example: 15 seconds means it operates for 15 seconds before nagging owner to pay attention.
L3: advance warning time means it gives early warning of that time frame; example: 15 seconds means it can operate indefinitely (for example an hour) but before disengaging due to conditions, it gives 15 seconds of warning.

 

[mspohr]

The warning for L3 is 8-10 seconds, not 15 seconds. Given the speed limitations (37 mph) it'll probably be able to do that, although we will see how it works from reviews when the function comes out in the real world.
Audi's A8 self-driving tech depends on regulatory changes

The 15 seconds refers to the nag interval for the L2 system already out in the 2017 A4 and Q7.
Piloted driving - Audi Newsroom

Again this is where confusion happens.

L2: nag interval means it will only operate at most that interval; example: 15 seconds means it operates for 15 seconds before nagging owner to pay attention.
L3: advance warning time means it gives early warning of that time frame; example: 15 seconds means it can operated indefinitely (for example an hour) but before disengaging due to conditions, it gives 15 seconds of warning.

I'm just wondering about the "disengaging due to conditions" 15 seconds in advance.
How does it know that it will have to disengage 15 seconds ahead of time?
If it knows 15 seconds ahead, why can't it just figure out what to do?
I know the max speed is 37 mph (which is pretty much useless for daily driving) but still, a lot can happen in 15 seconds.

 

[lunitiks]

How does it know that it will have to disengage 15 seconds ahead of time?

1. Time limits. It won't let you drive in L3-mode indefinetly, maybe just for like 5, 10 or 20 mins.
2. Maps and GPS. The system will obviously be restricted to certain highways, so the system knows when you'll be exiting the L3-domain based on your direction and speed.

 

[redy]

You forgot the hands on the wheel part. Audi=no, Tesla=always. Also a slightly improved driver takeover response window: 15 seconds for Audi vs. .001 seconds for Tesla.

That's what I meant by Audi taking responsibility by not asking for hands on.

I don't understand the 15s takeover response time. 15s is a lot of time when you are driving even at 37 mph. How is it going to know what's going to happen 15s later that will require the driver to take over? At the same time it means that it'll know what to do in the event if for example something happening like a car coming into your lane etc, that it will react to and take care of all those kind of sudden situations.

 

[bjornb]

Looks expensive:

@Bladerskb : Any idea about the price for these units at the moment?

 

[calisnow]

@Bladerskb this discussion becomes interesting when the A8 is actually available for purchase in the US in early 2018. Until then you're getting excited about YouTube videos. At that time all we know about AP2 is that it will be at least as good as it is today but probably will have advanced. At that time a comparison of the capabilities of the 2018 A8 vs AP2 Teslas will be worth thinking about. Til then - go fly a kite.

 

[R.S]

The only numbers you need to know.. Audi A8/S8 sales down over 30% in the US for 2016 going back to 2013, about when the Model S started to become more available:

Audi A8 / S8 US car sales figures

We are only talking about 6300 down to 4100 cars per year, but at the same time the Model S went from just 2650 in 2012 to nearly 29,000 in 2016:

Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

Audi is stuck in the past and this is just another example of how wrong they are about the future of cars.

A4 still does well, but that will end soon with the model 3. I feel bad for Audi, they seem to be a decent little brother to BMW and Daimler, but sadly they are all lost causes at this point. I assume VW will end up owning them all as they go bankrupt over the next few years. Of course VW will also be much smaller and weakened by legacy thinking, but if one has to survive, I am going to go with the biggest.

Not sure if the A8, starting at 82k, really competes that much with the Model S, starting at 68k before incentives. And their purpose is also totally different, the A8 is meant to be enjoyed most on the back seat, whereas the Model S isn't.

But even compared to the A6, the Model S is doing well. So Audi definitely sees Tesla as a competition. That's probably why they are pushing autonomous technology. And I don't think all German automakers will go down. Tesla will definitely grab a big piece of luxury car sales, but that's basically the most stable growing market.

They will definitely need to catch up on EVs, but it is by far not all said and done right now. I understand that you want to defend Tesla here, but there actually is no need to. This is a Tesla forum, most of us are pro Tesla anyways. But we can still appreciate what Audi did. Le's hope Tesla does one better! Competition is a good thing, you know. And we don't need Audi to go down, for Tesla to be successful.

 

[mspohr]

That's what I meant by Audi taking responsibility by not asking for hands on.

I don't understand the 15s takeover response time. 15s is a lot of time when you are driving even at 37 mph. How is it going to know what's going to happen 15s later that will require the driver to take over? At the same time it means that it'll know what to do in the event if for example something happening like a car coming into your lane etc, that it will react to and take care of all those kind of sudden situations.

I can imagine this scenario:
- car thinks it won't be able to handle the situation, gives a 15 second warning to take over
- car crashes 3 seconds later because some fool pulled into your lane.
- last gasp from the pile of Audi wreckage on the side of the road 12 seconds later "Please take over control of the car"

 

[mspohr]

Not sure if the A8, starting at 82k, really competes that much with the Model S, starting at 68k before incentives. And their purpose is also totally different, the A8 is meant to be enjoyed most on the back seat, whereas the Model S isn't.

But even compared to the A6, the Model S is doing well. So Audi definitely sees Tesla as a competition. That's probably why they are pushing autonomous technology. And I don't think all German automakers will go down. Tesla will definitely grab a big piece of luxury car sales, but that's basically the most stable growing market.

They will definitely need to catch up on EVs, but it is by far not all said and done right now. I understand that you want to defend Tesla here, but there actually is no need to. This is a Tesla forum, most of us are pro Tesla anyways. But we can still appreciate what Audi did. Le's hope Tesla does one better! Competition is a good thing, you know. And we don't need Audi to go down, for Tesla to be successful.

ING Bank published a report today (adding to quite a few others) stating that electric cars will account for ALL new car sales by 2035. They also said that German automakers are way behind and will have trouble competing.
Electric cars to account for all new vehicle sales in Europe by 2035

Interesting to note that this new state of the art Audi A8 is available in petrol, diesel and a hybrid with a 48 volt battery (about enough to run the sound system and electric seats). They still don't get it.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I think this article clears up a lot things, and of course opens up lots of new questions.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/07/meet-audis-new-tech-flagship-the-2018-a8-sedan/

From what I've read from various articles is the A8 will go on sale in Europe THIS fall, and it will go on sale in the US in the spring or summer of 2018.

As to L3 it still needs regulatory approval. In germany they did pass a law allowing for L3, and L4 driving but it only pertains to the drivers.

Audi A8 poised to benefit from Germany's new self-driving law

So it's definitely not what I'd consider vaporware, and it's not a long ways off.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Looks expensive:
View attachment 235489
@Bladerskb : Any idea about the price for these units at the moment?

Looks like it's a relatively low resolution 3 beam unit that should be much cheaper than the 16+ beam ones we have seen in most projects. And from the diagram it suggests it is a panning (145 degree) mirror with no tilt function.

 

[mrkisskiss]

That's what I meant by Audi taking responsibility by not asking for hands on.

I don't understand the 15s takeover response time. 15s is a lot of time when you are driving even at 37 mph. How is it going to know what's going to happen 15s later that will require the driver to take over? At the same time it means that it'll know what to do in the event if for example something happening like a car coming into your lane etc, that it will react to and take care of all those kind of sudden situations.

The point is not that it gives you 15s warning if something crazy is about to happen... that would make it able to see the future, and it can’t do that.

The point is that it gives you ample warning (say 15s) that you’ll need to take back control - i.e when it starts to get near its L3 geofenced/mapped area. The whole point of L3 is that it doesn’t warn you about impending doom - it deals with it for you, as long as you’re within the L3 mapped/approved area.

We’ll only get L3 and L4 cars on certain roads for the foreseeable future... it’s hard for us to appreciate how this tech works, because we’re so used to autopilot. Autopilot‘s issues are almost all to do with finding drivable path. L3 cars don’t need to do this, so a lot of those problems are immediately solved. Audi must be confident that the system can see issues immediately, and respond to them effectively (probably just by stopping or steering hard, which explains the 37mph limit - it’s probably the speed at which you can almost always walk away from a crash scenario).

 

[McRat]

One study has 90% of fatalities happening at <=47 mph (75 kmh), but I can't seem to find it, going off memory.

But this study https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/relatio...ry_pedestrians_and_car_occupants_richards.pdf has 90% at about 52mph, see pg 20 fig 3.1 red curve.

BUT... Look where 50% fatality rate is at. 35 mph. Flip a coin at 37 mph frontal impact speed.

 

[croman]

The point still remains that its always easier to take pot shots and criticize things that exist rather than ideals that are on paper. When the A8 actually arrives and has been on the road, then we can discuss. Until then its all hot air.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The point still remains that its always easier to take pot shots and criticize things that exist rather than ideals that are on paper. When the A8 actually arrives and has been on the road, then we can discuss. Until then its all hot air.

I think you could say that if it wasn't going to be released until 2018, or 2019.

But, it's being released this FALL in Germany. Now the L3 driving won't be enabled, but that's not the fault of Audi. It does exist, and it's ready to turn on as soon as regulations allow for it.

Which is an interesting comparison to the FSD of AP2 which is on the road right now in physical terms, but the software isn't ready. Clearly FSD is meant at the very least for L3.

So clearly 2018 is shaping up to be the year of L3. Of when we might start to see regulatory approval in pockets of this world. Where there is at least the A8 with L3, and perhaps FSD. Or at the very least EAP with certain features that needed/met regulatory approval.

So I'm pretty excited, and even if I have some issues with both approaches I'm glad that it's finally coming together.They are both very much dipping ones toes in kind of things.

 

[mspohr]

I think you could say that if it wasn't going to be released until 2018, or 2019.

But, it's being released this FALL in Germany. Now the L3 driving won't be enabled, but that's not the fault of Audi. It does exist, and it's ready to turn on as soon as regulations allow for it.

Which is an interesting comparison to the FSD of AP2 which is on the road right now in physical terms, but the software isn't ready. Clearly FSD is meant at the very least for L3.

So clearly 2018 is shaping up to be the year of L3. Of when we might start to see regulatory approval in pockets of this world. Where there is at least the A8 with L3, and perhaps FSD. Or at the very least EAP with certain features that needed/met regulatory approval.

So I'm pretty excited, and even if I have some issues with both approaches I'm glad that it's finally coming together.They are both very much dipping ones toes in kind of things.

Wake me when it's actually available to buy. Until then it's just hype.