First P85D adopters stuck in black hole

[randompersonx]

Something to think about.

The P85D introduction is ahead of their targeted desire to produce it. Elon and JB were in Oslo in early 2014 and during an interview, indicated a dual-drive Model S would come out about the same time as the Model X. People complaining about getting it now with a few week delay are actually getting it, what, 6-months ahead of when Model X comes out? Is there any way to look at this in a positive light?

One thing I think should have been done is that the factory should first have produced the Model S orders from mid to late summer first and then put up the D orders for "Q1 delivery" and worked forward from there. Trying to shoe-horn a large burst of P85D orders into the end of the year has somewhat backfired in a smooth delivery structure. While messing with the initial run of P85D, people ordering from August to September were still waiting on cars. Since Tesla already has their deposits and desires to buy - they risked alienating these folks in favor of higher-margin cars to close the year out.

I agree. I would have been just fine if I was told to expect delivery in January -- but thanks to this "OMG LAST MINUTE" rush, I did not plan a vacation just to stick around to accept delivery of this car, which now looks like it won't even happen.

 

[dsm363]

This I think is exactly the issue ... Let's say a miracle happened and an unlimited supply of corrected seats magically appeared tomorrow. They would need to retrofit ~500 cars and get them out the door no later than Wednesday to get a reliable delivery date before 12/31 -- and this would still place a huge amount of pressure on DS's which will be expected in some cases to get a couple of trucks with 30 cars all at once, wash and inspect all of them and get them delivered between 12/29 and 12/31.

There's simply no way that all of us will be get a delivery before 12/31 with new seats, and if our cars currently either have no seats, or defective seats -- there is no way we will get them at all, since putting any seat (old or new) will take time.


The flipside for Tesla -- I'm sure it will be no problem to sell P85D's right off of the lot. Plenty of people would impulse buy them right now. From the tone of this thread, I expect there to be a number of cancellations in the next week, so that will perhaps help satisfy a different set of buyers.

I still haven't decided what I will do, but I am certainly not happy with the current situation. A hastily-thrown-together franken-car is not what I was expecting -- and it seems that anyone who ordered a few days after me and had their car built 12/6 or later will get a better product -- and certainly a better experience.

If the seats are the only issue would getting the correct seats next month done at the service center not be an option? I don't see how this makes this a 'frankencar' as some have described. Sure this is far from ideal but installing new seats is very different from major body work or new wiring harnesses on a production car. It should be the same quality as if done at the factory. It's simply a new seat.

 

[randompersonx]

If the seats are the only issue would getting the correct seats next month done at the service center not be an option? I don't see how this makes this a 'frankencar' as some have described. Sure this is far from ideal but installing new seats is very different from major body work or new wiring harnesses on a production car. It should be the same quality as if done at the factory. It's simply a new seat.

Except dealer work is not as good as Factory work. Factory work is done either by a robot, or a human that does the same job over and over and is an expert in that particular job. Dealers have neither. During the install process, the seat may be bumped against some other trim or painted surface and cause a scuff. Screws may not be tightened all the way (or too tight), and lead to squeaks, rattles, etc. No, it's not the end of the world, and I would probably accept having seats installed in January with a December delivery of a car with old seats -- but I haven't even been offered that! I have in fact received ZERO information from Tesla on what is going on with my car, other than it sitting in assembly for three weeks.

Also, Tesla still has not fessed up about what the issues are. They sent out the blast that there was the seat issue which was resolved -- but our cars still have not moved. There are also others in this same thread who didn't even order the Next-Gen seats, who are also stuck in limbo. That suggests there is some other problem.

 

[AlMc]

Something to think about.

The P85D introduction is ahead of their targeted desire to produce it. Elon and JB were in Oslo in early 2014 and during an interview, indicated a dual-drive Model S would come out about the same time as the Model X. People complaining about getting it now with a few week delay are actually getting it, what, 6-months ahead of when Model X comes out? Is there any way to look at this in a positive light?

One thing I think should have been done is that the factory should first have produced the Model S orders from mid to late summer first and then put up the D orders for "15Q1 delivery" and worked forward from there. Trying to shoe-horn a large burst of P85D orders into the end of the year has somewhat backfired in a smooth delivery structure. While messing with the initial run of P85D, people ordering RWD versions from August to October were still waiting on cars. Since Tesla already has their deposits and desires to buy - they risked alienating these folks in favor of higher-margin cars to close the year out. Do you think maybe they needed the burst in repeat sales (tradeins and all that) to grow backlog again?

They could alienate some of these people but it also gives them the chance to change their orders to AWD if it suits their needs which many may do? Glass half full? If I had had the option while waiting for my P85+ to be produced to add AWD I would have been happy to do so. Many people who just purchased their RWD P85+ were very upset with TM and even traded their brand new cars in for an AWD version when the D announcement was made.

 

[Krugerrand]

Except dealer work is not as good as Factory work.

Except Tesla doesn't have 'dealers'. All employees are Tesla employees, so there's no reason to think that SC work would be less than factory work. Indeed, it seems quite reasonable and something that Tesla would do - send factory seat installation people to SC's to do the work, or send the person who trained the factory seat installation people to the SC's to train the SC people on how to change out seats.

Tesla is holding these cars because they aren't up to standards and yet so many are concerned about poor quality built cars. Makes less than zero sense. You'll all get your cars and they'll all be fine and they'll have 5* rated seats. You do all realize this whole issue was Tesla looking out for its customers, right? You've demanded to know what the hold up is, you've been told what the hold up is, and yet some are still not satisfied, thinking there's got to be something else. No, there doesn't have to be something else, but if there is something else then let Tesla hold your car until they get it right. You won't have the first car on the planet that came off an assembly line with a problem (millions upon millions came before) and you won't have the last, but all will still be fine in the World.

 

[dsm363]

Except dealer work is not as good as Factory work. Factory work is done either by a robot, or a human that does the same job over and over and is an expert in that particular job. Dealers have neither. During the install process, the seat may be bumped against some other trim or painted surface and cause a scuff. Screws may not be tightened all the way (or too tight), and lead to squeaks, rattles, etc. No, it's not the end of the world, and I would probably accept having seats installed in January with a December delivery of a car with old seats -- but I haven't even been offered that! I have in fact received ZERO information from Tesla on what is going on with my car, other than it sitting in assembly for three weeks.

Also, Tesla still has not fessed up about what the issues are. They sent out the blast that there was the seat issue which was resolved -- but our cars still have not moved. There are also others in this same thread who didn't even order the Next-Gen seats, who are also stuck in limbo. That suggests there is some other problem.

That makes sense. Good points. Telsa does have their service center people do training at the factory so it is a slightly different situation that a traditional dealership (I think, not sure about this). Either way, their communication has not been good so understand your frustration. Hopefully they make this right somehow but the waiting isn't easy but will hopefully be worth it.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

You would think people would be used to Tesla time by now.

This whole thread reminds me why I moved out if the Bay Area.
People are so impatient!
&
'Tesla' shouldn't be making promises,

 

[bonnie]

I'm sorry that some of the first people to place orders are the ones stuck in limbo - in careful reading of this thread, it seems there are good reasons (though it doesn't help when it's your car). I think the important point that people, especially new folks, should focus on is that there is NOTHING other than worry that is driving the 'it's a beta car, it's not the same quality' churn here. In fact, in looking at the facts, it appears that quality of one specific component (seats) is the reason your cars are held up.

It sounds like the cars held up were produced with seats that failed side air bag testing (internal or external testing, dunno). Because of port problems where a lot of stuff is currently held up, not just Tesla parts but enough to hit the news around here, the required replacement parts are held up and Tesla can't get at it. So they're offering to deliver the cars with older seats and giving options of a credit or retrofit. That seems to be a reasonable response.

As those of you who have been involved with manufacturing operations can likely imagine, components are kitted out, assigned to s/n (or VINs in this case) and to take seats from other cars in production would be just playing WhackAMole with the cars, moving the problem over to other cars coming down the line - and in doing so, you run the risk of introducing new problems you didn't have before.

Situation sucks for everyone. And no argument regarding the poor communication. Instead of piecing together 'what happened', there should have been an official letter out of the comms group letting people know. I think that's a lack at Tesla - most companies call in Comms to put together official communications on everything. 'Get us a messaging doc, what can we say, can't we say?' 'Please write this customer letter regarding [this]' and so on. I haven't seen Tesla Comms in that role & hopefully Ricardo Reyes will tackle that early on and expand the reach of the Comms group. No time like the present...

If I were waiting for my car right now, I'd be annoyed over the lack of communication. I would not be worried over potential quality issues.

 

[roblab]

Patience! It will come!

Milli and I waited three and a half YEARS for our car. With almost zero communication until we bribed a worker at the factory to tell us what was going on, literally! He sent us cell phone pictures, no less, as our car moved down the line.

It still had numerous issues. Many defects, poor fit, that they have never been able to fix. But it's a signature! The new cars are noticeably better, stronger, have more amazing tech.

And Tesla is doing all it can, believe me. Just chill out, have some patience. Your car will be here soon, and the wait will be a memory that you can tell your friends as you give them a 0-to-60-ride-in-3+ seconds.:smile:

 

[redox]

That's a promising development. I think you are the first of the original group to make that switch.

Unfortunately no. I've been in "Your Model S is being prepared for pickup or delivery." since 11/29. Still in the black hole.

-- Greg

 

[flyboyzz1]

I will PM you with his address. But my explanation (may be wrong), is that once whatever the problem(s) were with the early production was identified (airbags in seats). Those cars were put aside for individual fixing and the assembly line pushed to max out production. The affected cars are slowly being retrofitted while the production line is firing along.


*****RandompersonX beat me to it. He is correct that the mods do not like the emails of individuals shared in the open forum***********

Sent an email. Will post if he replies.

 

[redox]

Milli and I waited three and a half YEARS for our car. With almost zero communication until we bribed a worker at the factory to tell us what was going on, literally! He sent us cell phone pictures, no less, as our car moved down the line.

It still had numerous issues. Many defects, poor fit, that they have never been able to fix.

This is exactly why the Frankenstein theory is worrying people.
In your day maybe you didn't have an option (all Sig cars were produced with the same "quality"), but for the black-hole problem it looks like it's a bit different: there IS a production line that seems to be cranking cars out fairly quickly (not held up in QA). It seems reasonable to assume that those will not exhibit the same amount of issues as the black-holed cars.

Pure speculation of course, but reasonable speculation nonetheless.

-- Greg

 

[flyboyzz1]

there IS a production line that seems to be cranking cars out fairly quickly (not held up in QA).

Just saw on the delivery thread a guy had his go into production and then complete in about three days. 3 weeks on one side.... 3 days on the other. There is more to it then the seats.

 

[Andyw2100]

Just saw on the delivery thread a guy had his go into production and then complete in about a day. 3 weeks on one side.... 1 days on the other. There is more to it then the seats.

I think you're almost certainly referring to me, and if you are, that's quite an exaggeration.

All the details are in the other thread. I noticed that the status changed to "In Production" at about 12:30 AM on 12/11. It could have happened very late on 12/10. Very early this morning--say 1:30 AM--the car was still showing as in production. By late morning it was showing as "Production Complete." So in the very least, that's three solid days in production, not one.

 

[NOLA_Mike]

Not to mention that in an effort to calm the masses, Jerome sends the following to some of us last week:

It says that the issue with the upgraded seats has been resolved. I foolishly took that to mean I would be receiving a call from my DS shortly thereafter scheduling a pickup of my ordered car. Instead, my Friday call from my DS tells me that 1) still no delivery date set and 2) I won't be getting the next generation seats when my car is delivered.

Again, poor (unacceptable) communications from Tesla.

 

[flyboyzz1]

I think you're almost certainly referring to me, and if you are, that's quite an exaggeration.

All the details are in the other thread. I noticed that the status changed to "In Production" at about 12:30 AM on 12/11. It could have happened very late on 12/10. Very early this morning--say 1:30 AM--the car was still showing as in production. By late morning it was showing as "Production Complete." So in the very least, that's three solid days in production, not one.

Ok, yeah I misread your post. I'll edit mine. But still 3 weeks - 3 days :smile:


Don't get me wrong, happy for all those folks who have cars completed though!

 

[randompersonx]

Except Tesla doesn't have 'dealers'. All employees are Tesla employees, so there's no reason to think that SC work would be less than factory work. Indeed, it seems quite reasonable and something that Tesla would do - send factory seat installation people to SC's to do the work, or send the person who trained the factory seat installation people to the SC's to train the SC people on how to change out seats.

Some people here are way too obsessed with the word Dealer. In order to sell a car in the state of florida, you are required to have a "Dealer" license. Therefore I am buying the car from a dealer. It may be a corporate owner dealer, but that makes no difference.

The SC does not have an assembly line or robots. It's one off hand work by service techs who do not specialize on that one task, and it's not the same.

- - - Updated - - -

You've demanded to know what the hold up is, you've been told what the hold up is, and yet some are still not satisfied, thinking there's got to be something else. No, there doesn't have to be something else, but if there is something else then let Tesla hold your car until they get it right. You won't have the first car on the planet that came off an assembly line with a problem (millions upon millions came before) and you won't have the last, but all will still be fine in the World.

I was not told why my car is being held. I was given no reason. Cars that entered production after mine completed in 3 days. Mine has been sitting 3 weeks.

 

[Krugerrand]

Some people here are way too obsessed with the word Dealer. In order to sell a car in the state of florida, you are required to have a "Dealer" license. Therefore I am buying the car from a dealer. It may be a corporate owner dealer, but that makes no difference.

The SC does not have an assembly line or robots. It's one off hand work by service techs who do not specialize on that one task, and it's not the same.

What you're doing is thinking that Tesla runs its operations just like every other car manufacturer and that their SC operate like all other dealerships on the planet. Nothing is further from the truth. You have zero factual information that replacing the seats after the fact is going to be less in any way than if they'd come from the factory with them. But, okay. If it's important for you to speculate and think the worse, drive yourself crazy, get yourself wound up with worry and anxiety, then have it.

I was not told why my car is being held. I was given no reason. Cars that entered production after mine completed in 3 days. Mine has been sitting 3 weeks.

Fact: You're on this forum and you've read the reason why cars are being held back. So while you may not have been personally contacted, you know. Let it go or get on the horn and have at it with Tesla personally, so that they know your stance and what you intend to do about the whole thing.

Bonnie's post on the previous page is correct about how parts are kitted in manufacturing and how you do NOT take parts kitted to specific vehicles to put in other vehicles. That's why your car is still sitting - the new batch of parts for your car are stuck at port. Again, the reason you're upset is because Tesla is looking out for you, but messed up with communicating it to you.

 

[flyboyzz1]

Bonnie's post on the previous page is correct about how parts are kitted in manufacturing and how you do NOT take parts kitted to specific vehicles to put in other vehicles. That's why your car is still sitting - the new batch of parts for your car are stuck at port. Again, the reason you're upset is because Tesla is looking out for you, but messed up with communicating it to you.

your post doesn't explain why some cars are being shipped out with old seats and why people who ordered textile seats are also in the group in limbo. If it was just the seats why are they not just shipping these with the old seats and offering to retro? Why does the guy with textile seats have a seat in the swirling black hole? Jerome didn't address these in his response. There are more problems than the seats (speculation).

 

[bonnie]

The SC does not have an assembly line or robots. It's one off hand work by service techs who do not specialize on that one task, and it's not the same.

Seats are installed by people, not robots. Whether those people are assigned to the assembly line or a service center, the quality of the installation is the same. This is not a component that requires factory installation or 'it will never be quite the same'. I've had seats in various cars pulled for various reasons and replaced - never once did I think that was something that would be a problem. And never once was it a problem.