Fisker Fires

[mattjs33]

As you can see in this post: PEM-motor-gets-too-hot-fans-failed?p=137310, Tesla used off the shelf cooling fans in Roadster.
Here's a post with the spec sheets:PEM-motor-gets-too-hot-fans-failed?p=138758

If you're thinking Tesla is building its own electric fans for Model S you're almost certainly wrong. At most, Tesla specifies a unique size, power, configuration, etc., but there's another company building it. Just like Tesla isn't doing the chrome plating for the door handles. Just like Tesla isn't sewing the seat coverings and doesn't have a pasture out back raising the cows for the leather seats. At this point in time, there isn't anything Tesla could do to make electric fans better than anyone else.

So, having specified and tested some samples of fans, Fisker and Tesla, and probably every other company in the world, is then content to simply order them, unbox, and install. Fisker/Tesla probably pull one out of each batch at random and test it to be sure it's meeting specs, and it if were considered critical they'd test random samples in various failure modes. But, they obviously can't test each fan to failure because then they'd have nothing to actually install.

So at least one other person here understands how cars are built these days.

In 27 years in the auto parts business, I can't ever remember hearing of a case where a fan motor of any type failed in a manner that led to a fire. There's a similar motor on the blower of the HVAC system of everyone's house, and I can't ever remember hearing of a house fire that originated from failure of such a motor. And I don't even think I can blame the Karma's notoriously dense engine compartment, in relation to overheating of said motor. Many other cars have nearly as dense engine compartments (I'm thinking here of GM shorehorning that 5.3 V8 into the FWD Impala/Grand Prix), and operate without similar incident.

So my guess would be an error or fault in how the motor was wired, or insufficient gauge cable for the current being drawn through it to power the motor.

 

[Lloyd]

So at least one other person here understands how cars are built these days.

In 27 years in the auto parts business, I can't ever remember hearing of a case where a fan motor of any type failed in a manner that led to a fire. There's a similar motor on the blower of the HVAC system of everyone's house, and I can't ever remember hearing of a house fire that originated from failure of such a motor. And I don't even think I can blame the Karma's notoriously dense engine compartment, in relation to overheating of said motor. Many other cars have nearly as dense engine compartments (I'm thinking here of GM shorehorning that 5.3 V8 into the FWD Impala/Grand Prix), and operate without similar incident.

So my guess would be an error or fault in how the motor was wired, or insufficient gauge cable for the current being drawn through it to power the motor.

What's different about the Karma is that the motor is a generator, and when operating it runs at near full throttle. This can happen when the car is stationary. Other ICE cars have a cool down period. In other words when you are done romping on the throttle with air moving over the car, there is usually some time at idle for the catalytic converter and cooling system to catch up with the heat generated, and space is not such a cramped premium as in the Fisker. JMO

 

[bonnie]

So at least one other person here understands how cars are built these days.

In 27 years in the auto parts business, I can't ever remember hearing of a case where a fan motor of any type failed in a manner that led to a fire. There's a similar motor on the blower of the HVAC system of everyone's house, and I can't ever remember hearing of a house fire that originated from failure of such a motor. And I don't even think I can blame the Karma's notoriously dense engine compartment, in relation to overheating of said motor. Many other cars have nearly as dense engine compartments (I'm thinking here of GM shorehorning that 5.3 V8 into the FWD Impala/Grand Prix), and operate without similar incident.

So my guess would be an error or fault in how the motor was wired, or insufficient gauge cable for the current being drawn through it to power the motor.

I take it you're saying there was no need for Fisker (or any manufacturer, for that matter) to understand what kind of failure might occur if the fan was wired improperly?

I guess what bothers me is that Fisker had a recall of some cars in June for a coolant leak. At that point, it seems the question should have been asked (if it hadn't been already) "how will these components fail & does the failure have an unacceptable result?".

I think we all would find it unacceptable for Tesla to have multiple recalls on the Model S because they hadn't followed a basic good engineering practice. And if someone had gotten hurt as a result of the fan fire, I think we'd all be comfortable in saying that the whole design should be reviewed a little more closely.

Granted, I may not have direct experience with how cars are manufactured, but I do have in-depth experience with the manufacturing processes in a variety of industries, have evaluated many potential acquisitions for a Fortune 100 company - and they're all the same in this regard. Understanding risks and failure modes is an expectation.

 

[mattjs33]

What's different about the Karma is that the engine is a generator, and when operating it runs at near full throttle. This can happen when the car is stationary. Other ICE cars have a cool down period. In other words when you are done romping on the throttle with air moving over the car, there is usually some time at idle for the catalytic converter and cooling system to catch up with the heat generated, and space is not such a cramped premium as in the Fisker. JMO

Fixed it for you. :wink:

I totally get what you are saying, and I agree about the heat generation, but I don't see why excessive heat would pick on the cooling fan motor specifically. Suffice to say there's probably a bit more heat in there than would be typical. We may see patterns of failures of heat sensitive electrical components underhood in the Karma.

I take it you're saying there was no need for Fisker (or any manufacturer, for that matter) to understand what kind of failure might occur if the fan was wired improperly?

I guess what bothers me is that Fisker had a recall of some cars in June for a coolant leak. At that point, it seems the question should have been asked (if it hadn't been already) "how will these components fail & does the failure have an unacceptable result?".

I think we all would find it unacceptable for Tesla to have multiple recalls on the Model S because they hadn't followed a basic good engineering practice. And if someone had gotten hurt as a result of the fan fire, I think we'd all be comfortable in saying that the whole design should be reviewed a little more closely.

Granted, I may not have direct experience with how cars are manufactured, but I do have in-depth experience with the manufacturing processes in a variety of industries, have evaluated many potential acquisitions for a Fortune 100 company - and they're all the same in this regard. Understanding risks and failure modes is an expectation.

I never said or implied anything about whether or not it was or wasn't Fisker's responsibility to understand what might happen given any or all possible failures of any or all given components. I was just specualting as to how the fire may have started. As to who's to blame, that's a job for lawyers.

 

[donauker]

What's different about the Karma is that the motor is a generator, and when operating it runs at near full throttle. This can happen when the car is stationary. Other ICE cars have a cool down period. In other words when you are done romping on the throttle with air moving over the car, there is usually some time at idle for the catalytic converter and cooling system to catch up with the heat generated, and space is not such a cramped premium as in the Fisker. JMO

Not sure where you get your information, but most of these statements are incorrect. When the ICE is operating it produces power at the approximate level that it is being used by the drive motors. It never revs at high power load when the car is stationary. The ICE will do a shutdown when the vehicle is brought to a stop. There is no significant difference in ICE operation during range extend mode in my Karma from my previous Lexus Hybrid. The engine bay in the Lexus Hybrids appears equally cramped to me.

 

[Lloyd]

Not sure where you get your information, but most of these statements are incorrect. When the ICE is operating it produces power at the approximate level that it is being used by the drive motors. It never revs at high power load when the car is stationary. The ICE will do a shutdown when the vehicle is brought to a stop. There is no significant difference in ICE operation during range extend mode in my Karma from my previous Lexus Hybrid. The engine bay in the Lexus Hybrids appears equally cramped to me.

Sorry to misinform if that is the case. I remember seeing a video of a Karma (could not find it today) in a parade going about 2 mph and having the motor reving and being particularly noisy while only barely moving. I thought then that 'wow, cooling must be an issue' with that much going on with the engine, and no air moving across the car.

 

[SoCalGuy]

What's different about the Karma is that the motor is a generator, and when operating it runs at near full throttle. This can happen when the car is stationary. Other ICE cars have a cool down period. In other words when you are done romping on the throttle with air moving over the car, there is usually some time at idle for the catalytic converter and cooling system to catch up with the heat generated, and space is not such a cramped premium as in the Fisker. JMO

Just to correct one error in the above. The GM Ecotec in the Karma does NOT operate a "full throttle" - the turbocharged engine has a maximum output of 260 hp at 5,300 rpm. The Karma only runs the Ecotec at a maximum of 171 hp at 3,500 rpm - and that is at peak acceleration demand. For more info, see Fisker press release: Newsroom - Fisker - Press Release

 

[smorgasbord]

Not sure where you get your information, but most of these statements are incorrect. When the ICE is operating it produces power at the approximate level that it is being used by the drive motors. It never revs at high power load when the car is stationary. The ICE will do a shutdown when the vehicle is brought to a stop. There is no significant difference in ICE operation during range extend mode in my Karma from my previous Lexus Hybrid. The engine bay in the Lexus Hybrids appears equally cramped to me.

To be fair, Fisker has changed how the ICE operates. From this review from C&D, for instance:

Bent on fulfilling its mission, the generator set keeps growling even when you ease off the accelerator.

I can't find the reference, but early documents indicated that the car was setup to run the engine at an efficient rpm, even if the power demands didn't require it, and put any excess juice into the battery. Again I can't find the reference, but I recall reading that Fisker changed the behavior so that the engine runs less and only at the rpms needed to provide the driver-requested extra power.

 

[doug]

Little late here, but yeah Fisker changed the Karma's ICE behavior, probably for NVH reasons. This likely impacted performance and efficiency, but was seen as a necessary trade-off.

 

[SoCalGuy]

Little late here, but yeah Fisker changed the Karma's ICE behavior, probably for NVH reasons. This likely impacted performance and efficiency, but was seen as a necessary trade-off.

That tweak was done primarily for NVH and I think emissions as well. Thus, the car's 0-60mph time went from 5.9s to 6.3s (and changed in the promo material accordingly).

 

[ggr]

Little late here, but yeah Fisker changed the Karma's ICE behavior, probably for NVH reasons. This likely impacted performance and efficiency, but was seen as a necessary trade-off.

NVH? Que?

 

[strider]

NVH? Que?

Noise, Vibration, Harshness. Basically, the passenger's "quality of life".

 

[SoCalGuy]

Btw, looks like Tesla isn't the only EV maker in Jalopnik's sites. Sensationalism at its finest: Leaked Document Shows Fisker Has More Issues Than Fiery Cars

The document they referenced is neither "leaked" nor "confidential." I guess the blogosphere really has no sense of balance or fairness.

 

[jory]

more than a dozen fiskers burned to a crisp after being submerged in seawater during storm sandy:

Jalopnik.com Updates: More Than A Dozen Fisker Karma Hybrids Caught Fire And Exploded In New Jersey Port After Sandy

 

[doug]

more than a dozen fiskers burned to a crisp after being submerged in seawater during storm sandy:

Jalopnik.com Updates: More Than A Dozen Fisker Karma Hybrids Caught Fire And Exploded In New Jersey Port After Sandy

I thought this was a joke when I first saw the headline. What a way to react to some water.

 

[bonnie]

Hard to blame this on the owner.

 

[AnOutsider]

That's unreal. Saltwater?

 

[TEG]

16 "isolated incidents", eh?
Good data set to show some consitency there...

 

[doug]

Submersion in salt water. I suppose it could have shorted out the battery pack or some other electricals. But you'd think they could have designed around such a catastrophic failure mode. With the Roadster, Tesla designed in immersion sensors that are supposed to offer some form of protection. I wonder if such a failure could happen to a Roadster or Model S.

 

[teslasguy]

My concern is that this can scare a lot of people away from EVs. I'd like to see Tesla toss an S into a water tank to show how it doesn't explode or catch on fire. But just wait until mine is built. Can't handle anymore wait anxiety!!


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