For those owners unhappy with drop in maximum charged range

[AmpedRealtor]

Let me ask this question, (I have never tested this, and probably wouldn't want to only if I was near my home or a charging station) if you are right and it is only an "algorithm issue", then technically speaking if you were rated for... 255 miles and it dropped to 245, the car would evidently still have 10 rated miles left over??? If I drove 245 miles would the WARNING: CHARGE NOW! screen pop up, even though 10 more miles were secretly there? (Lets pretend that there was NOT any battery degradation, and only an algorithm issue.)

I keep a 40-50 mile range buffer on the low end, so I don't know the answer.

And for the last part doesn't Tesla warranty the battery up for 70% of degradation (in 8 years time)???

Others have probably chimed in by now, but no, Tesla does not have any 70% degradation standard. The written battery warranty excludes range loss due to usage. That exclusion covers practically every situation.

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Just remember, you will lose range, the range loss is guaranteed to not exceed 30%, so you're safe. Most of the problems are explainable, or Tesla will fix them. Again, You're safe.

This is not true, not at all. Have you read your battery warranty? There is no published or stated 30% standard as you wrote above, and the written battery warranty specifically excludes range loss due to battery usage (that would cover every situation). Please, let's stop spreading this urban legend. It doesn't exist.

 

[ckessel]

I can almost guarantee that the next memo to hit the SC's will be that every car gets range charged for the entire time Tesla has the car. Tesla already does this on demo cars.

Demo cars are driven pretty continuously with test drives, so they never stay at 100% for very long. And they get sold so fast, they don't stay demo cars very long.

I've had a loaner car 3 times, it's never been range charged when I picked it up.

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As has been said numerous times here, most of the range is not lost. It's just that since you can't really measure "miles" in a pack, they have to do a lot of tricky calculations that don't work right unless you occasionally visit near the top and bottom in a single trip. And without balancing every now and then, you will hit end voltage sooner and sooner. Doing a full cycle once, and/or balancing once, is not good enough due to the algorithms that measure over time. But you don't want to do them constantly, because they are not good for the battery.

Here is, unfortunately, a big part of the problem (not you Chad, but the way hidden loss works). It's going to be tremendously difficult to hit mass market if the range isn't considered trustworthy. Either not to degrade badly or to accurately display the range. If it says I've got 240 at max charge, I'm not leaving for a 240 mile trip saying "well, some miles are secretly hidden, so I'm fine" (all other factors assumed favorable for achieving the estimated range). Folks also aren't going to want to play some game of max charge, run it out, repeat for a week before a road trip so they have full range when they do leave. Or even as a "fix it once very 3 months" routine. That's simply not going to fly in the mass market.

A portion of the hyper aware and educated folks that visit this forum are a bit grumbly. Whether justified grumbles or not, that's going to be magnified 100x in mass market.

There needs to be some long term fix. Some way the charging software can rotate secretly emptying and filling some portion of the battery on overnight charges or some such. It must be a solvable problem behind the scenes at some point. After all, we're already discussing solutions here that, as a software guy, I would firmly call hacks to get things in balance. First hack it, then get it right?

 

[Super Gizmo]

canuck - Good luck with your new car. One of the other serious problems I was referring to is "loud hum over 70mph". Tesla has had to replace several motors to correct the problem. I am taking in the car to have them look at my hum issue along with the battery. I would call these serious problems. I am not even bringing up numerous other issues like problems with doors popping open, tilt wheel making snapping sound, various doors, hatch etc being out of alignment etc. etc.

roblab - I have only used Rated miles. Going down from 265-267 on a new car to 246 in 16K miles is significant loss. So is Standard charge going down to 214 from about 245 under ideal weather conditions. It has been a mild 70 around here lately.

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ckessel - I agree with your statement - "It's going to be tremendously difficult to hit mass market if the range isn't considered trustworthy. Either not to degrade badly or to accurately display the range."

 

[ChadS]

It's going to be tremendously difficult to hit mass market if the range isn't considered trustworthy. Either not to degrade badly or to accurately display the range.

Agreed. This is one of MANY problems with trying to display "miles of range". That's simply not a measurable thing, and it will change due to unforeseeable future factors. There is no way to make people happy by displaying an optimistic estimate of the number of miles left, as somebody is going to try to use them all. (I know better; that's why I'm perfectly happy with my car. But a lot of new owners don't know better).

 

[dsm363]

Maybe a simple percentage with 'estimated 200-225 miles' for example that would change based on weather , elevation , speed...etc would work.

 

[markb]

Agreed. This is one of MANY problems with trying to display "miles of range". That's simply not a measurable thing, and it will change due to unforeseeable future factors.).

No, the problem is that Tesla won't provide an official definition of rated or projected miles, and different reps will give different definitions. And those computations have definitely changed over time. Is is easy to estimate the number of miles you can drive at any given point if you are provided with meaningful, consistent information, but impossible to do so if you aren't.

The original definitions I received of rated and projected miles were clear and simple, and seemed to be accurate, but I know that the definition of projected miles, at least, has changed.

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I feel that it is truly shocking for Tesla to not address this problem head on and be forthright about it. After all many of us have spent over a hundred grand on these cars. If Tesla thinks we will just bitch & moan on these forums and then disappear they have a rude surprise awaiting. If my problem is not addressed by the Service Center when my car is taken in for this issue and I am not given a clear explanation in writing...

I agree, but I will be truly shocked if you get any explanation in writing. Based on my experience and that of others, just don't think it is going to happen.

 

[Chris Naps]

Haha - this forums post went from a simple guy who was angry about his 40 KW battery not being able to recover because he cannot balance his car, to a large rant from people wanting answers, ohh boy.

I think it is safe to assume that Tesla as an entity is very new... I will define it, in human terms, in its early childhood stage. It was an infant in 2006-2008 range when they introduced their roadster. After fixing their mistakes and understanding what they did right from wrong, they began to produce the Model S. The Model S has come out and Tesla is only beginning to walk. They probably do not fully understand the battery technology, especially lithium Ion cells, to the fullest extent. That is why there has not been any specific standards that are unified throughout all tech centers. It is more or less people reiterating known standards and knowledge. The Model S owners currently are essentially the lab rats of tomorrows generation, the Gen III vehicle. After a few years of recorded data from all Model S's under all climate conditions and the data crunched, reviewed, and finalized only then can Tesla make statements that will turn into standards for the next generation of vehicle. And until there is well over a decade of information and multiple generation models, can Tesla mature as a fully grown company.

An example of what I meant by collecting data from all Model S's, is if a owner charges at 50% every day compared to his neighbor who decides to charge at 90%, who will have more of a degradation? Another is if each charge at 90%, but both drive different - how does driving style affect degradation? These are all questions that cannot be answers at the moment. It will take years of data to prove any theories right versus wrong.

 

[djp]

It's going to be tremendously difficult to hit mass market if the range isn't considered trustworthy. Either not to degrade badly or to accurately display the range.

Agreed 100%. On the mass market Model E, Tesla should replace the range estimate with an analog gauge that floats from F to E in 1/8 increments to avoid this confusion. :smile:

 

[Super Gizmo]

Chris Naps - Are you insinuating that Tesla just sold $2 Billion worth of notes and is going to build a $4-$6 Billion battery factory without understanding the battery technology! You think they don't know what they are doing and yet their net worth is more than half that of GM and Ford. The battery is the KEY component of Model S. I am sure they know a lot more than they are letting on and certainly a lot more than any one on these forums. By the way if you had the same problem as some of us are having you would be ranting and raving too!

 

[Chris Naps]

Chris Naps - Are you insinuating that Tesla just sold $2 Billion worth of notes and is going to build a $4-$6 Billion battery factory without understanding the battery technology! You think they don't know what they are doing and yet their net worth is more than half that of GM and Ford. The battery is the KEY component of Model S. I am sure they know a lot more than they are letting on and certainly a lot more than any one on these forums. By the way if you had the same problem as some of us are having you would be ranting and raving too!

Woohh... Calm down. Don't yell at me for a comment that is true. It seems as if you are insinuating that I do not like Tesla? I'll say this - I love the company and have a lot of wealth invested in its success, I also own the vehicle, but yes it is a new company. Number 2 Tesla is not building the factory alone, it has partners (Panasonic). Panasonic as has an interest in the company, as well as I do and everyone else who owns stock in the company or vehicle in their driveway.

"I am sure they know a lot more than they are letting on and certainly a lot more than any one on these forums."

If this statement is true, then I would consider it a royal slap in the face and you should too if you had the vehicle. The whole reason this thread was created was to address the problem of rated miles, then why wouldn't (if Tesla knows, as you said) make an open statement of the reason for the problem and a solution, rather than lead us to pretend as if we know the answer. If we keep bothering technicians day in and day out on questions such as these why wouldn't they just make a unified statement? I do not know how you can simply make a claim that the Model S isn't a lab rat's car.. There is information that they most likely cannot mention as fact because there is inconclusive data at the moment.. Ask any scientist if a controlled lab experiment is the same as an uncontrolled real world experiment, and the answer is no in most cases. I've heard that Tesla has a Model S that has well over 500,000 miles on it, and counting. Does that mean that ALL Model S's will last this long? No... Why? Because they are under real world conditions and cannot be controlled, only monitored. And that is what I was saying - Tesla at this point in time, most likely, cannot factually state a reason because there is inconclusive data to back their claims... Also Tesla does not make the batteries... They implement them in the cars - Panasonic is the battery company. If anything Panasonic might be the reason why Tesla cannot make claims for the moment.

Thanks for blowing my statements out of proportion

P.s.

"net worth is more than half that of GM and Ford."

You cannot compare a company such as GM or Ford to Tesla.... There isn't a comparison. Both might be in the car industry, but both appeal to two completely different class of people (at this time). Also, even though this article is EXTREMELY bias, it is oddly true: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1087199_is-tesla-motors-really-worth-almost-half-the-value-of-gm
Just taking a look at the financial reporting's GM profited 20.5B, Ford profited 25.52B, while Tesla profited 456.26M in 2013. So please do not try to compare apples to grapes.

Moreover Tesla is a great company and I, as well as you and most the people on this forums have a vested interest, but when a company sells a car and doesn't substitute a viable answer for a common problem, then I have a problem, especially after paying $124,246 MSRP. You said they have the answer, then if they do please tell us.

 

[qwk]

So is Standard charge going down to 214 from about 245 under ideal weather conditions.

If you are going to compare numbers, at least compare apples with apples. The Standard charge went from 93% to 90%. 245 rated was the 93%.

 

[Super Gizmo]

Chris Naps - you have misunderstood me. I was responding to your statement stating that we who have problems with the range of our batteries were ranting unnecessarily. I think these forums are an ideal place to report what is going on with our cars. Of course most of us owners want Tesla to succeed that is why we have invested a lot of money in the company by buying these cars. However I do not agree with your statements stating that Tesla does not know what is going on with the batteries which are the main component of these cars. They have very smart engineers working on these cars since the days of the roadster. Tesla has also stated that they have improved the battery life of the Model S vis a vis The Roadster. They wouldn't put thousands of these cars on the road all over the world if they did not know enough about the batteries used in them.

qwk - The Standard Rated Charge in my car dropped from about 245 to 214 as of this morning in ideal weather conditions in Bay Area whereas the Rated Range Charge dropped yesterday from what used to be 265-267 to 246 in similar wonderful weather conditions. As others have also reported on this thread that is a significant loss in 16K miles. So, I don't know what comparing apples have to do with this. Have you had a similar loss in your car? If not then you have nothing to complain about.

 

[qwk]

qwk - The Standard Rated Charge in my car dropped from about 245 to 214 as of this morning in ideal weather conditions in Bay Area whereas the Rated Range Charge dropped yesterday from what used to be 265-267 to 246 in similar wonderful weather conditions. As others have also reported on this thread that is a significant loss in 16K miles. So, I don't know what comparing apples have to do with this. Have you had a similar loss in your car? If not then you have nothing to complain about.

No, I don't have a similar loss in my car. You know why? Because my pack is balanced. If the Model S truly did have a problem with degradation, everyone here would have similar losses. Because they don't tells us that some owners follow simple instructions, and some don't.

 

[Chris Naps]

Chris Naps - you have misunderstood me.

Okay - I understand - I am sorry I could not tell because you put a lot of exclamation marks haha. No problem. (Shakes hand)

 

[Bardlebee]

I've read this whole thread. And I have one question that maybe got answered but I missed it. I don't own the car yet, so bare with me.

Isn't the point of "Standard Mode" in the Tesla to charge up to 90 percent? At what point are you in "Range Mode"?

If the whole point of charging every day to 90%, which from my understanding is Tesla's official statement being "Just keep it plugged in at all times". Wouldn't I want to go off of Tesla's standard of keeping it plugged in, aka maxing out standard mode and thus doing more then the "babying" of 70%?

Where is the hard evidence that disproves Tesla's line of keep it plugged in? Where are the hard evidence points that show that babying the car at those percentage help? Are we all just part of a big foot fan club chasing down big foot with no evidence? Did someone make up this babying technique and now we are shouting it as gospel?

I guess I just don't see any facts around babying that Tesla hasn't already figured out with their programming and thus that is why they are confident in saying "Just leave it plugged in".... again, note I don't have the car yet and I have not read the manual, but obviously being a active member of this forum I know quite a bit. Or at least I think I do

 

[ecarfan]

Where is the hard evidence that disproves Tesla's line of keep it plugged in? Where are the hard evidence points that show that babying the car at those percentage help? Are we all just part of a big foot fan club chasing down big foot with no evidence? Did someone make up this babying technique and now we are shouting it as gospel?

Not all of us are in agreement with the "babying" approach. I charge my S85 at 80% to 90% every night and occasionally to 100% if needed (and then start driving within minutes after 100% charging is complete).

I have only had my car for 3 months and 3700 miles.

 

[djp]

@bardlebee, Tesla has eliminated the Standard charge and replaced it with a charge slider that ranges from 50% to 100%. You can plug in all the time, and choose a specific level to charge to.

The question of which level is "best" depends on your personal preference and typical driving range. There is evidence that keeping the slider below 75% helps long term battery life.

Why do Li-ion Batteries die? And how to improve the situation?

Ironically, doing shallow charge cycles also seems to confuse Tesla's battery capacity estimate algorithm, which reports lower range if you don't regularly exercise the full range of the pack. I expect Tesla will get this fixed in a future version of the firmware.

 

[Bardlebee]

@bardlebee, Tesla has eliminated the Standard charge and replaced it with a charge slider that ranges from 50% to 100%. You can plug in all the time, and choose a specific level to charge to.

The question of which level is "best" depends on your personal preference and typical driving range. There is evidence that keeping the slider below 75% helps long term battery life.

Why do Li-ion Batteries die? And how to improve the situation?

Ironically, doing shallow charge cycles also seems to confuse Tesla's battery capacity estimate algorithm, which reports lower range if you don't regularly exercise the full range of the pack. I expect Tesla will get this fixed in a future version of the firmware.

This helps and is cool that Tesla did that. I wonder though if Tesla's technology in battery lifespan is more complicated then we give it credit for. i.e. It doesn't matter if its charged to 90 percent all day every day.

I certainly won't need it, but I think it would be great if we got an official wording from Tesla engineers stating "No, our battery technology and handling doesn't need your 'baby business'" or "Yes, due to lithium technology it is best to charge to 75% though Tesla cannot guarantee range (insert cover our ass for outliers here)"

I'm definitely on the clarity boat, especially as more and more drivers start driving a Tesla, it gets less of an early adopter car and more of a main stream vehicle. I would argue we are about out of the early adopter stage as the globe is now aware of Tesla. Items and concerns such as this need to be made crystal clear as legally as they can make it to stem the tide of frustration and pseudo science we are using from other sources.

 

[djp]

This helps and is cool that Tesla did that. I wonder though if Tesla's technology in battery lifespan is more complicated then we give it credit for. i.e. It doesn't matter if its charged to 90 percent all day every day.

I certainly won't need it, but I think it would be great if we got an official wording from Tesla engineers stating "No, our battery technology and handling doesn't need your 'baby business'" or "Yes, due to lithium technology it is best to charge to 75% though Tesla cannot guarantee range (insert cover our ass for outliers here)"

I'm definitely on the clarity boat, especially as more and more drivers start driving a Tesla, it gets less of an early adopter car and more of a main stream vehicle. I would argue we are about out of the early adopter stage as the globe is now aware of Tesla. Items and concerns such as this need to be made crystal clear as legally as they can make it to stem the tide of frustration and pseudo science we are using from other sources.

No question that Tesla has the most advanced BMS in the industry, but that can't get around the basic physics of Li-Ion batteries. Lower SOC is better for lifespan. When you have time watch the Dalhousie video, it's great overview of the science and technology behind the batteries.

The question is how much of an improvement in battery life you'll get from <75% compared to 90%, but we won't know that answer until we have real world stats in 10-15 years. Batteries charged to 90% will probably be good for 8-10 years while those charged <75% could last 20+ (based on Prof. Dahn's research).

I'm not surprised Tesla doesn't offer guidance on battery life, there are too many variables at play and they don't have the long term stats either. We may be out of the early adopter phase, but we're still lab rats in the battery longevity study.

 

[jerry33]

If this statement is true [Tesla knows more about batteries than they let on], then I would consider it a royal slap in the face and you should too if you had the vehicle.

I wouldn't say that. It's often the case when technical folks give an explanation to non-technical folks that the statement is misunderstood or used out of context and the results are not so good. This almost certain to be the case when there are powerful entities that don't want the company to succeed. Tesla is like doing the right thing by giving simple instructions ("plug it in whenever possible", avoid draining to zero", etc.).

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The question is how much of an improvement in battery life you'll get from <75% compared to 90%, but we won't know that answer until we have real world stats in 10-15 years. Batteries charged to 90% will probably be good for 8-10 years while those charged <75% could last 20+ (based on Prof. Dahn's research).

Provided that the car is not driven hard when the battery is below 50%, which would heat up the batteries and shorten their life. Here's a real-world example of how a correct technical statement can be (possibly) interpreted incorrectly. In other words, charging to 90% could be just as good for the battery as charging to 75% depending upon the circumstances.