FSD Beta runs stop signs!

[sacfan]

Twice in the past 10 days my 2019 Model X Raven has tried to run stop signs. The 1st time was 3/24/22 while running 2022.4.5.20 (FSD Beta 10.11.1). I was navigating in the city on autopilot and the car clearly was not going to stop at the stop sign until I jammed on the brakes. My recollection is that the car was actually speeding up as it approached the stop sign rather than slowing down. I was so shocked by this behavior that I turned around and repeated the approach to the stop sign and the exact same thing happened again. Both times the car clearly would not have stopped unless I jammed on the brakes. I did note at this time that I was driving directly into the sun, though the sun was by no means blinding to me. I have never had problems at this particular stop sign before, and go by it at least several times per month.

Yesterday, 4/7/22, after I had been upgraded to 2022.4.5.21 (FSD Beta 10.11.2) the same thing happened at a totally different stop sign. Again I noted that I was heading into the sun though it was not at all distracting to me. If I had not jammed on the brakes the car would have gone right through the stop sign (or else it might have jammed on the brakes at the very last minute). In both cases, the stop sign was located just after a slight bend in the road. This stop sign I drive by almost every day.

In both cases I pressed the icon at the top of the display to send a report to Tesla and also pressed the microphone and said “Bug. The car tried to run the stop sign”. Is this the correct thing to do when trying to communicate problems with the FSD Beta?

Anyone else experiencing this kind of behavior with these two recent versions of the FSD Beta? I haven’t had a problem like this with prior versions of the FSD Beta software. I haven’t found any other reports of this when I’ve searched the TMC forums.

Thanks.

 

[TresLA]

Software updates often result in unexpected behavior. If you look years back you’ll see post after post of people reporting “degradation”. We really just don’t know. No, I haven’t noticed any such behavior. Neural nets are hard to predict, exactly because they aren’t direct-rule based programming. Keep reporting, but also keep in mind it will amaze or horrify you at any moment out of the blue. In your specific case, can you try to return to the same intersection and make note of whether the stop sign appears in the visualization? That would help us (not necessarily Tesla) maybe understand why.

Also, your post title should probably be less click-baity. FSD beta probably doesn’t run stop signs more than production AP, or humans, or etc. Such is anecdotal evidence.

 

[sacfan]

Software updates often result in unexpected behavior. If you look years back you’ll see post after post of people reporting “degradation”. We really just don’t know. No, I haven’t noticed any such behavior. Neural nets are hard to predict, exactly because they aren’t direct-rule based programming. Keep reporting, but also keep in mind it will amaze or horrify you at any moment out of the blue. In your specific case, can you try to return to the same intersection and make note of whether the stop sign appears in the visualization? That would help us (not necessarily Tesla) maybe understand why.

Also, your post title should probably be less click-baity. FSD beta probably doesn’t run stop signs more than production AP, or humans, or etc. Such is anecdotal evidence.

Good idea about looking for the stop sign in the visualization. I hadn’t thought of that and it’s easy enough to do. I wanted to let the car run the stop sign when I went back and replicated the behavior, but I didn’t have the guts to do so.

 

[TresLA]

Good idea about looking for the stop sign in the visualization. I hadn’t thought of that and it’s easy enough to do. I wanted to let the car run the stop sign when I went back and replicated the behavior, but I didn’t have the guts to do so.

As a responsible beta tester, I wouldn’t run the stop sign. Just look for the stop sign in the visualization that that’ll help answer why it’s potentially running it. If you do see it, that’s much more concerning than if it doesn’t appear in the visualization.

 

[sacfan]

Software updates often result in unexpected behavior. If you look years back you’ll see post after post of people reporting “degradation”. We really just don’t know. No, I haven’t noticed any such behavior. Neural nets are hard to predict, exactly because they aren’t direct-rule based programming. Keep reporting, but also keep in mind it will amaze or horrify you at any moment out of the blue. In your specific case, can you try to return to the same intersection and make note of whether the stop sign appears in the visualization? That would help us (not necessarily Tesla) maybe understand why.

Also, your post title should probably be less click-baity. FSD beta probably doesn’t run stop signs more than production AP, or humans, or etc. Such is anecdotal evidence.

I tried to retitle it “My FSD Beta runs stop signs” but it’s too late for me to edit my original post. I get your point, which is why I went back and immediately reproduced the behavior at the first stop sign. Incidentally, I don’t usually run two stop signs a week, at least that I’m aware of. If I do, then I really need the FSD beta to improve quickly .

 

[3Volts2aTes]

Software updates often result in unexpected behavior. If you look years back you’ll see post after post of people reporting “degradation”. We really just don’t know. No, I haven’t noticed any such behavior. Neural nets are hard to predict, exactly because they aren’t direct-rule based programming. Keep reporting, but also keep in mind it will amaze or horrify you at any moment out of the blue. In your specific case, can you try to return to the same intersection and make note of whether the stop sign appears in the visualization? That would help us (not necessarily Tesla) maybe understand why.

Also, your post title should probably be less click-baity. FSD beta probably doesn’t run stop signs more than production AP, or humans, or etc. Such is anecdotal evidence.

Question - does …should…production AP recognize stop signs and handle them appropriately? I had assumed it did not, and instead that it simply handled lane keeping, distance behind a vehicle ahead (yes, even to the slow to a stop and start again)…but not actual traffic control such as stop signs and lights.

 

[OncomingStorm]

Question - does …should…production AP recognize stop signs and handle them appropriately? I had assumed it did not, and instead that it simply handled lane keeping, distance behind a vehicle ahead (yes, even to the slow to a stop and start again)…but not actual traffic control such as stop signs and lights.

if you purchased or subscribed to FSD (not FSDBeta) on your car and turn on the feature in the settings, yes it will handle stop signs/lights. it stops a little far back on stop signs for me lol, but otherwise works well.

Edit: it will stop at traffic control but you do have to confirm with the stalk or the pedal when it's safe to proceed.

 

[Supcom]

Twice in the past 10 days my 2019 Model X Raven has tried to run stop signs. The 1st time was 3/24/22 while running 2022.4.5.20 (FSD Beta 10.11.1). I was navigating in the city on autopilot and the car clearly was not going to stop at the stop sign until I jammed on the brakes. My recollection is that the car was actually speeding up as it approached the stop sign rather than slowing down. I was so shocked by this behavior that I turned around and repeated the approach to the stop sign and the exact same thing happened again. Both times the car clearly would not have stopped unless I jammed on the brakes. I did note at this time that I was driving directly into the sun, though the sun was by no means blinding to me. I have never had problems at this particular stop sign before, and go by it at least several times per month.

Yesterday, 4/7/22, after I had been upgraded to 2022.4.5.21 (FSD Beta 10.11.2) the same thing happened at a totally different stop sign. Again I noted that I was heading into the sun though it was not at all distracting to me. If I had not jammed on the brakes the car would have gone right through the stop sign (or else it might have jammed on the brakes at the very last minute). In both cases, the stop sign was located just after a slight bend in the road. This stop sign I drive by almost every day.

In both cases I pressed the icon at the top of the display to send a report to Tesla and also pressed the microphone and said “Bug. The car tried to run the stop sign”. Is this the correct thing to do when trying to communicate problems with the FSD Beta?

Anyone else experiencing this kind of behavior with these two recent versions of the FSD Beta? I haven’t had a problem like this with prior versions of the FSD Beta software. I haven’t found any other reports of this when I’ve searched the TMC forums.

Thanks.

I would test the stop sign at various times of the day to isolate whether the sun position was a factor in the car's failure to stop. This would be a major failure mode for FSD beta.

 

[2101Guy]

"it will do the wrong thing at the worst time..for $12k"(c)Elon

 

[Mr. Michael]

The problem appears at several stop signs near me as well. My feeling is that the car does not really “see“ stop signs, except for visualization purposes. The stop signs (and speed limits) are provided by the mapping, which is sometimes wrong. If only there was a way for Tesla to fix the maps based on some sort of feedback.…

 

[3Volts2aTes]

if you purchased or subscribed to FSD (not FSDBeta) on your car and turn on the feature in the settings, yes it will handle stop signs/lights. it stops a little far back on stop signs for me lol, but otherwise works well.

Edit: it will stop at traffic control but you do have to confirm with the stalk or the pedal when it's safe to proceed.

Got it. That was what I was expecting, but the AP as a standard package without the FSD purchase/subscription would not be expected to.

It just does the lane keeping and a bit of auto-distancing all the way down to a stop and start *if* there is a vehicle in front for it to work off of. Basically a part of the difference (although Tesla has changed terms over time) between "standard" AP and "enhanced" AP. (Yes, I know EAP got wrapped into the FSD, etc...). Thanks!

 

[enemji]

Twice in the past 10 days my 2019 Model X Raven has tried to run stop signs. The 1st time was 3/24/22 while running 2022.4.5.20 (FSD Beta 10.11.1). I was navigating in the city on autopilot and the car clearly was not going to stop at the stop sign until I jammed on the brakes. My recollection is that the car was actually speeding up as it approached the stop sign rather than slowing down. I was so shocked by this behavior that I turned around and repeated the approach to the stop sign and the exact same thing happened again. Both times the car clearly would not have stopped unless I jammed on the brakes. I did note at this time that I was driving directly into the sun, though the sun was by no means blinding to me. I have never had problems at this particular stop sign before, and go by it at least several times per month.

Yesterday, 4/7/22, after I had been upgraded to 2022.4.5.21 (FSD Beta 10.11.2) the same thing happened at a totally different stop sign. Again I noted that I was heading into the sun though it was not at all distracting to me. If I had not jammed on the brakes the car would have gone right through the stop sign (or else it might have jammed on the brakes at the very last minute). In both cases, the stop sign was located just after a slight bend in the road. This stop sign I drive by almost every day.

In both cases I pressed the icon at the top of the display to send a report to Tesla and also pressed the microphone and said “Bug. The car tried to run the stop sign”. Is this the correct thing to do when trying to communicate problems with the FSD Beta?

Anyone else experiencing this kind of behavior with these two recent versions of the FSD Beta? I haven’t had a problem like this with prior versions of the FSD Beta software. I haven’t found any other reports of this when I’ve searched the TMC forums.

Thanks.

Did the visualization on your screen show the stop sign?

 

[tiberia.sun@gm]

It's more of a perception problem than policy problem.

 

[sacfan]

Did the visualization on your screen show the stop sign?

I’ve gone back to both areas now multiple times and reproduced the described behavior. The issue is that the car is not visualizing the stop signs; but to be fair, a human would not see them either. In one case, the stop sign is right after a bend in the road and is not visible until it’s too late. In the other, tree branches blowing in the wind obstruct the view of the stop sign. When autopilot is off, I slow down because I know the stop signs are there. If autopilot is on, and the car in front is stopped, then my car slows down too so as not to hit the stopped car.

If there is no car stopped in front of mine, the stop sign is not visualized on screen because it cannot be seen. A bit unnerving when one considers the future of driverless cars, but at least it explains what is happening.

 

[Yelobird]

I’ve gone back to both areas now multiple times and reproduced the described behavior. The issue is that the car is not visualizing the stop signs; but to be fair, a human would not see them either. In one case, the stop sign is right after a bend in the road and is not visible until it’s too late. In the other, tree branches blowing in the wind obstruct the view of the stop sign. When autopilot is off, I slow down because I know the stop signs are there. If autopilot is on, and the car in front is stopped, then my car slows down too so as not to hit the stopped car.

If there is no car stopped in front of mine, the stop sign is not visualized on screen because it cannot be seen. A bit unnerving when one considers the future of driverless cars, but at least it explains what is happening.

I actually applaud that you came back to your thread to clarify the event. Sadly on a forum like this a few like to take a concern as a norm and make up the facts as they assume them. Like a human if your car can’t see the stop sign it is likely to not follow the correct process. Personally I have never once had an issue with FSD beta or FSD missing a stop granted I am observant that if I can’t see it (around curve, behind bush) likely my car can’t either. Thanks for the update and clarification.

 

[Z_Lynx]

My feeling is that the car does not really “see“ stop signs, except for visualization purposes. The stop signs (and speed limits) are provided by the mapping, which is sometimes wrong. If only there was a way for Tesla to fix the maps based on some sort of feedback.…

In the most recent release, I believe it sees the stop signs visually and does not use map data.

I've described a problematic minor road that angles off a more main road. Initial FSD approach from the slanty minor road was perpendicular, stopping at the visualized sign (I believe) and lurching into the road to make a sharp left turn.

With the most recent beta, FSD approaches the main road at an appropriate angle and but there is no visualization of the stop sign so it acts like it will run through it. First time I disengaged. Second time I let it run through it (no traffic in sight). Next time I was at this intersection, I turned the car perpendicular to the road and the stop sign was visualized.

There is a "stop sign ahead" warning that is not visualized either. I put in a request to cut back vegetation to see if it makes any difference.

 

[boonedocks]

I have the opposite problem. When traveling on rural roads / state highways when there is a road intersecting that comes in at an angle my car sees their stop sign and heavily brake checks however is behind me. I have just gotten used to having to watch for these events and just press the accelerator when FSD A/P would normally brake hard.

 

[Z_Lynx]

boonedocks, sounds like your car is acting on the visualization (though faulty - seeing stop sign from side road) and not a map.

 

[Dcam]

Software updates often result in unexpected behavior. If you look years back you’ll see post after post of people reporting “degradation”. We really just don’t know. No, I haven’t noticed any such behavior. Neural nets are hard to predict, exactly because they aren’t direct-rule based programming. Keep reporting, but also keep in mind it will amaze or horrify you at any moment out of the blue. In your specific case, can you try to return to the same intersection and make note of whether the stop sign appears in the visualization? That would help us (not necessarily Tesla) maybe understand why.

Also, your post title should probably be less click-baity. FSD beta probably doesn’t run stop signs more than production AP, or humans, or etc. Such is anecdotal evidence.

Baity expert lol

 

[gordonpcrespo]

Software updates often result in unexpected behavior. If you look years back you’ll see post after post of people reporting “degradation”. We really just don’t know. No, I haven’t noticed any such behavior. Neural nets are hard to predict, exactly because they aren’t direct-rule based programming. Keep reporting, but also keep in mind it will amaze or horrify you at any moment out of the blue. In your specific case, can you try to return to the same intersection and make note of whether the stop sign appears in the visualization? That would help us (not necessarily Tesla) maybe understand why.

Also, your post title should probably be less click-baity. FSD beta probably doesn’t run stop signs more than production AP, or humans, or etc. Such is anecdotal evidence.

Nonsense! If this gentleman repeated the drive several times and each time the car would have run the stop sign this ‘clickbaity’ title was completely appropriate based on his experience.