Isn't the FSD feature transferable to the new owner, and as such, used in determining the sale price of the car used? Not trying to be a troll, I honestly don't know the answer to this question. I always thought that the FSD option followed the car.
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SSonnentag
埃隆•馬斯克
From what I've read, as long as the software feature was purchased with the car new, it should be permanently tied to the vehicle. I've heard some stories of features purchased after-the-fact that Tesla then stripped from the vehicle when they took it in as a trade and resold it. It's all hearsay though, so I have no firsthand knowledge.
I can see both sides to the argument. The problem is that they market it as software which gives people an avenue to argue that the software belongs to them. This has been argued before on certain computer software that was only allowed to be installed on one machine. That issue has largely gone away now as most software gives you the ability to use it on a set number of devices.
If Tesla sold FSD as a hardware option (even if it's a toggle in the software and every car has the same hardware) then no one would ever make this argument.
If they were to ever tether FSD to the individual and not the car then the price would go up quite a bit I think.
XM Radio used to offer lifetime subscriptions (although they later said the subscription was tied to the device not the person). So did Tivo (and I think it still sort of has one today but it's messy). Lifetime subscriptions are generally never what the consumer thinks they are.
If Tesla sold FSD as a hardware option (even if it's a toggle in the software and every car has the same hardware) then no one would ever make this argument.
If they were to ever tether FSD to the individual and not the car then the price would go up quite a bit I think.
XM Radio used to offer lifetime subscriptions (although they later said the subscription was tied to the device not the person). So did Tivo (and I think it still sort of has one today but it's messy). Lifetime subscriptions are generally never what the consumer thinks they are.
I'm not sure I'm on board with monthly fees (though it's a good idea), but I'm definitely in the camp of being annoyed that I paid for FSD without getting FSD. Moreover, the trade-in value to Tesla is actually 0 because they can increase the "Value" of every used car they sell by simply turning that feature on. FSD currently only has value on the used market if you sell it to a non-Tesla dealer or private party.
I'm also in the position where I love my 3 so much, I'm thinking about getting an M3P or an S, but the re-sale value is exceptionally bad.
I'm also in the position where I love my 3 so much, I'm thinking about getting an M3P or an S, but the re-sale value is exceptionally bad.
ElectricIAC
Good-Natured Rascal
Not sure I’d be down to do a monthly payment on FSD but I too would love it if it were transferable between cars in the case of total, theft or resale (let’s say my buyer doesn’t care for FSD and just want a lower price? — I could port the option to a new Tesla for a nominal transfer fee)
I wouldnt own it (FSD, AP) if it was a monthly subscription. I hate them probably as much as you do, and do everything I can to try to avoid most of them. I really hate this 9.99 premium subscription that tesla implemented. I dont hate the idea of them charging, just the monthly subscription.
"I" want a $120 a year or $400 for life of vehicle option, and I would buy that $400 option in a heartbeat.
follow.johnny
FSD Beta Tester
Good suggestion! Another downside currently is that purchased "software" or "features" are NOT covered under insurance so if you total your Tesla. Insurance will not cover FSD software purchase.
I dont know why insurance wouldn't cover it. Just provide the receipt of the upgrade (assuming it was bought after the fact) should you total the car. Insurance covers FSD and EAP I bought with my car at delivery, I don't know why that would change for buying after the fact.
I would go even further and break up the FSD package into separate components. I would pay a $8-$10 monthly fee to play around with NoA but I am not interested in AutoPark until it parks quicker and more reliably than I can or Summon as I can walk the 100 feet to the parking space quicker than summoning my car.
$7k is a lot of cheddar to fund the development of software that will more than likely never meet level 4 or 5 autonomy with this generation of hardware but if they broke it up into a monthly revenue stream where I can subscribe and test it out for a while and then unsubscribe as desired then I would give it a whirl and probably would keep subscribing if I saw real progress in the feature set.
M3BlueGeorgia
Active Member
I generally disagree with that.
If you are going to disagree, but provide no reason why, there is a button for that
You failed to copy my full post, where I laid out the exception to my disagreement:
One massive exception should be if a Tesla is scrapped (aka totaled) it should be possible to transfer the software license to a new vehicle for a reduced cost, with the cost increasing based on the age of the vehicle.
Ex: If you wreck your 5 year-old Telsa, perhaps get a 50% credit against the FSD or EAP cost on the new replacement.
... Wreck your 5 month-old Tesla, perhaps get 100% credit
... So on, and so on.
BTW It would be exceptional to not transfer software license when selling the hardware it runs on.Ex: If you wreck your 5 year-old Telsa, perhaps get a 50% credit against the FSD or EAP cost on the new replacement.
... Wreck your 5 month-old Tesla, perhaps get 100% credit
... So on, and so on.
When I bought my used Tesla Model 3 with FSD. The Tesla worker allowed me to test drive the car before I drove it home. The previous owner was still connected to the car and had all of the owner's settings on it. So I got to keep the Spotify and Netflix settings. Not a big deal since I also have those subs. But FSD was already enabled. Tesla most likely took this car back as a lease or trade in. The previous owner probably only paid $2-4k for the FSD and either lose out on it or Tesla transferred it to a newer model Tesla.
M3BlueGeorgia
Active Member
Apparently, that's not been people's experience. The insurance payouts people have reported on are based on the value of the vehicle and vehicles with EAP and FSD have greater value.
You can search this site for examples.
We are saying the same thing. Insurance always pays actual cash value for all options. So what you just stated based on others experiences means insurance covered their EAP and FSD. If insurance negated coverage of software, they would only reimburse you the value of a car without EAP or FSD. I would expect my EAP and FSD package to be compensated by my insurance minus some set amount for depreciation just like all the other options on my car (premium upgrade package, etc).
Insurance never pays full new replacement cost unless you buy an add on rider to that effect. They would pay me enough to buy a used 2017 LR Model 3 with 40k miles and EAP and FSD and I would be whole.
I completely agree with the idea of giving the customer the option of transferring the FSD license to a new vehicle.
It's like getting a MacBook Pro with a bunch a expensive SW, but then being told you can't transfer the SW to a new machine. That would really hurt sales of new MacBooks because everyone would be holding onto their old one for as long as possible.
It also hurts innovation when you have your entire install base stuck on old HW. Your best customer is always your existing customer, and it's important to get them to trade in their vehicles every 2-4 years. That way you can continue to innovate, and add new features. This is what BMW, Audi, etc have been doing for a long time.
The biggest problem with FSD is Tesla promised everyone who bought it a self driving car in a very binary way. Where there is the expectation that the thing can drive coast to coast by itself. This basically tells someone that it's the last car they'll ever need to buy. This was a huge mistake, and I think Tesla will eventually wake up to this.
SAE Level 4 caters really well to incremental improvements. Where the manufacture can expand the capabilities of it to support additional areas, and more weather conditions. But, the way FSD is currently sold doesn't cater to incremental improvements because there is only so far you can go with SW alone.
There are two ways to fix this.
The easiest way is to allow the customer to decide to transfer the FSD license to a new vehicle, or to sell the FSD license with the old vehicle.
The other way would be to sell it as a service instead. These days most SW companies seem to be going to the service route.
Another thing at play is Tesla made a promise to customers that the vehicles were capable of FSD, but they're not. So at some point they're going to have to fess up. One way to handle that would be to offer them the ability to transfer the FSD license to a new vehicle with HW4 (or some other HW version that is capable of FSD).
It's like getting a MacBook Pro with a bunch a expensive SW, but then being told you can't transfer the SW to a new machine. That would really hurt sales of new MacBooks because everyone would be holding onto their old one for as long as possible.
It also hurts innovation when you have your entire install base stuck on old HW. Your best customer is always your existing customer, and it's important to get them to trade in their vehicles every 2-4 years. That way you can continue to innovate, and add new features. This is what BMW, Audi, etc have been doing for a long time.
The biggest problem with FSD is Tesla promised everyone who bought it a self driving car in a very binary way. Where there is the expectation that the thing can drive coast to coast by itself. This basically tells someone that it's the last car they'll ever need to buy. This was a huge mistake, and I think Tesla will eventually wake up to this.
SAE Level 4 caters really well to incremental improvements. Where the manufacture can expand the capabilities of it to support additional areas, and more weather conditions. But, the way FSD is currently sold doesn't cater to incremental improvements because there is only so far you can go with SW alone.
There are two ways to fix this.
The easiest way is to allow the customer to decide to transfer the FSD license to a new vehicle, or to sell the FSD license with the old vehicle.
The other way would be to sell it as a service instead. These days most SW companies seem to be going to the service route.
Another thing at play is Tesla made a promise to customers that the vehicles were capable of FSD, but they're not. So at some point they're going to have to fess up. One way to handle that would be to offer them the ability to transfer the FSD license to a new vehicle with HW4 (or some other HW version that is capable of FSD).
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I don’t know how Tesla gets away with calling it “Full Self Driving” at this point. That is really stretching it but I guess you are allowed to market it however you want. They should really refer to these features as drivers assists until they reach level 5 autonomy.
It depends on the hardware.
Video Game Hardware? don't transfer the software license.
Computer Hardware? Only transfer the OEM stuff that's locked to the machine
Computer, iPad, iPhone, etc? don't transfer the software license
Robot? The one I use has the SW tied to a hardware lock. So you can either sell the SW with the Robot that expands its features of you can keep it.
I personally like the Robot route.
You don't need Level 5 autonomy to have the vehicle take responsibility for the driving.
This starts with Level 3, but Tesla can't do Level 3 because they don't have the proper driver monitoring implementation for it.
Tesla can maybe pull off Level 4 with a very limited ODD (operational design domain) which means that it will do the driving in specific areas, and specific conditions. It ask you to take over but you can ignore it, and it has to continue on where it can safely stop for you to wake up from your slumber to take over.
I doubt we'll see any vehicle do Level 5 in our lifetime.
Building on the idea that your best customer is an existing customer Tesla should consider these points expanded from S4WRXTTCS and other's suggestions of how licensing FSD software may work (and its less capable subsets):
1. Make the license available to purchase even if you don't currently own a Tesla vehicle.
a. Consumers not ready to purchase a vehicle but interested in locking in FSD at the current price can buy now.
b. Each purchase would come with a profile at tesla.com to manage your Tesla account.
c. Tesla gets paid to build a marketing database listing consumers very likely to buy a vehicle in the future in addition to other Tesla products.
d. Software license sales add to Tesla's bottom line; unconstrained by vehicle supply.
e. Refines the business of FSD license sales for use in future third party vehicles.
2. FSD is licensed conditionally to the individual and the first vehicle they apply the license to. Transfers to future Tesla vehicles or new owners upon the sale of the original vehicle may be done with a license transfer fee, i.e. 10% of the current FSD price.
a. Maintains promise of getting the full capability of FSD with consideration for what was paid into the program.
b. Current Tesla vehicle owners are less apprehensive to upgrade to new Tesla models like they are now without the ability to transfer FSD.
c. The decision to bring FSD vehicle trade-ins to Tesla loses some negative stigma associated with not getting good value for purchased FSD.
d. Tesla gets paid on the private and third party dealership transfer of Tesla vehicles every time new owners want an FSD feature.
3. Consumers with multiple Tesla vehicles would still pay for multiple licenses if they want FSD on more than one vehicle.
a. Continues a clean business plan of one license/one vehicle for development cost/risk.
b. They can afford it.
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