FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[AlanSubie4Life]

I noticed something weird in 2024.14.9 last night and this morning: Sometimes when FSD is making a turn it will slide the repeater camera either down or to the right. In both cases that it slid it to the right the browser was in use, so it slid it over the top of the browser. Maybe it is sliding it to where it thinks your eyes are looking?

You may want to recalibrate your cameras.

 

[rlsd]

This X Plaid owner is not confident. He has a sticker with the auto pilot blue wheel saying "I'm probably not driving".
Mine says "Absolutely I am not driving".

 

[zoomer0056]

And top up the blinker fluid while I'm at it

The service menu explicitly cautions not to recalibrate the cameras unless the windshield or cameras have been replaced, but I just went ahead and did it anyway, because I suppose it can't hurt. (And I'd like to get it out of the way before v12.4.2 drops.)

Meanwhile, here is the offending curb in question. The dark red color and lack of street-lighting makes it much less visible at night, which is partly why I suspect the perception network had a problem seeing it. Once the camera calibration finishes I'll go back and give it another try. (And disengage if it looks like it's going to hit again!)

View attachment 1056826

I see a lot of tire marks!

 

[enemji]

And top up the blinker fluid while I'm at it

The service menu explicitly cautions not to recalibrate the cameras unless the windshield or cameras have been replaced, but I just went ahead and did it anyway, because I suppose it can't hurt. (And I'd like to get it out of the way before v12.4.2 drops.)

Meanwhile, here is the offending curb in question. The dark red color and lack of street-lighting makes it much less visible at night, which is partly why I suspect the perception network had a problem seeing it. Once the camera calibration finishes I'll go back and give it another try. (And disengage if it looks like it's going to hit again!)

View attachment 1056826

Tesla has great engineers but sometimes I feel they don't know how to express themselves correctly.

Recalibrating cameras should be indicated not only when you have cameras replaced but as well as the car suspension settles down from when it was a new one. The perspective especially of side cameras will be just different enough to see issues like you are experiencing.

 

[enemji]

Lucid has a ton of sensors, but not all of them are activated. I was also surprised to learn (at a showroom recently) that most of their fleet actually doesn't have Lidar installed. I would have expected they would all have Lidar just to gather fleet data like Tesla does, but apparently not. Only cars with the highest-end DreamDrive package are getting physical Lidar, at least for now.

OTOH, once L4 autonomy is "solved", these early Lucids (back to 2021) should be able to support it, due to their extensive hardware suite. Whereas Teslas with HW3 or HW4 may never be able to, if the ultimate solution does turn out to require Lidar/radar. So it's about both sensors and software. EQS/Lucid currently have better sensors, Tesla has better software. But software is much more easily upgradeable/retrofittable than hardware.

So how good is Lucid Dream Drive Pro? Can it drive any better than Tesla with the 32 sensors it has?

 

[enemji]

on the topic of FSD, just saw this note for the GM AutoParkAssist (APA)

 

[JulienW]

When Elon is pessimistic then......well...........multiple point releases = time so maybe 12.4.4/5 for us. Looks like 12.4.x is going to be pushed back until later in July or maybe into Aug. Thank goodness I'm pretty satisfied (for now) with 12.3.6.

No wonder we got the spring update. We may be on 24.20.x before we get 12.4.x.

 

[Ben W]

So how good is Lucid Dream Drive Pro? Can it drive any better than Tesla with the 32 sensors it has?

Not yet, but they haven't put any effort into it. (No economies of scale yet to be worth spending the effort on, with such a small number of cars in the fleet.) Once they have their midrange fleet ramping up in 2026, and have positive profit margins, it will make a lot more sense to put resources into seriously developing the autonomous software. This is similar to Tesla's timeline; cars started shipping with HW3-compatible hardware (2.5 with an upgrade path to HW3) in mid-2017, but they didn't deliver the first actual FSD software to customers until late 2021. So I'd cut Lucid some slack here. If I were to buy a Lucid today, it would be with the expectation that it might have very good autonomy a few years from now, not right away.

 

[aronth5]

I know we've all been waiting on Chuck's impression of v12.4.1. It's finally here:

@42:05 Chuck stated v12.4.1 is better than v12.3.6 on "this drive".
His commentary is really good. Chuck also had some feedback from the Annual Meeting related to a number of topics. A good listen.

And this from another v12.4.1 user. Video of 2 of his drives posted earlier. I'd love to know if AIDriver ever did a camera recalibration after his X post showing 6 very bad ping ponging lane changes. More and more positive feedback on v12.4.1 so I wonder what Tela has done?

 

[cyborgLIS]

Nope. The camera came up in the preferred location, and then slid to the new location a few seconds later, with no interaction/touches on the screen.

Was just driving a bit and I noticed the same thing. At a stop with the blinker on, FSD engaged. The camera moved to another position after a few seconds, seemingly in response to the car starting to make the turn.

 

[gottagofast]

12.4.2 this weekend huh

 

[cyborgLIS]

This is probably a stupid question but what is the new "Expandable Autopilot Driving Visualization" option. At first I thought it enabled full-screen visualization for Autopilot, but the setting is not available under the Autopilot profile and the description of the setting explicitly references FSD. I noticed no difference switching the setting on and off.

 

[Dewg]

There's a third possibility, which is that it detects the curb but in an imprecise location. In that case it's part-perception and part-planner; the planner should realize that the curb position may be inaccurate (perception) given the low lighting, and give it a wider berth.

Definitely a possibility, but we'd see more issues with this scenario than just curbing the wheels. If perception is imprecise, we'd see other manifestations, such as hitting cars when making lane changes, as the car can't tell exactly where the other car in the other lane is located. Unless you mean by a very small amount, like inches off. However, if that's the case, and it's normal for all Tesla cars to have perception be off by a few inches due to the hardware limitations of cameras, then it would still be a planner issue overall, as perception would be as precise as possible given the system as spec'd, and it's up to the planner to adjust accordingly.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

This is probably a stupid question but what is the new "Expandable Autopilot Driving Visualization" option. At first I thought it enabled full-screen visualization for Autopilot, but the setting is not available under the Autopilot profile and the description of the setting explicitly references FSD. I noticed no difference switching the setting on and off.

It just blows up your screen permanently when you engage FSD. Then you have to manually make it smaller even when going back to manual control.

It’s just an option that has to be turned off in the Autopilot menu. It’s not an option that should be enabled.

 

[JHCCAZ]

This X Plaid owner is not confident. He has a sticker with the auto pilot blue wheel saying "I'm probably not driving".
Mine says "Absolutely I am not driving".

" I'M NOT DRIVING!
But I'm paying very close attention to what happens..."

 

[Dewg]

And top up the blinker fluid while I'm at it

The service menu explicitly cautions not to recalibrate the cameras unless the windshield or cameras have been replaced, but I just went ahead and did it anyway, because I suppose it can't hurt. (And I'd like to get it out of the way before v12.4.2 drops.)

Meanwhile, here is the offending curb in question. The dark red color and lack of street-lighting makes it much less visible at night, which is partly why I suspect the perception network had a problem seeing it. Once the camera calibration finishes I'll go back and give it another try. (And disengage if it looks like it's going to hit again!)

View attachment 1056826

I'm not always sure about low light situations - the forward illumination from the headlights, in concert with the fog lights, and turn signal flashes, should give the cameras plenty of light to determine road features, especially given the high-contrast of the red painted curb. If you're not running with fog lights on, try enabling them as well in your testing, see if it makes a difference.

Purely anecdotal, but I've been surprised many times with my MY's visibility at night. The most impressive I recall was at night, poorly lit, and there was a kid dressed in all black, riding a black BMX bike on the sidewalk (stupid, I know). The car showed him on visualizations before I even noticed him, and this was back when the car was overly cautious near pedestrians, so it started slowing a little and I didn't know why until I saw the bike on visualizations, looked up and saw the kid. That's the moment I realized this car can sometimes see more than we can.

 

[cyborgLIS]

It just blows up your screen permanently when you engage FSD. Then you have to manually make it smaller even when going back to manual control.

It’s just an option that has to be turned off in the Autopilot menu. It’s not an option that should be enabled.

So it's an option that takes away the option to have split screen visualization? Why even waste a spot in the settings menu for that? Did they give the UI project to an intern?

 

[Ben W]

I'm not always sure about low light situations - the forward illumination from the headlights, in concert with the fog lights, and turn signal flashes, should give the cameras plenty of light to determine road features, especially given the high-contrast of the red painted curb. If you're not running with fog lights on, try enabling them as well in your testing, see if it makes a difference.

I'm sort of surprised that FSD wouldn't automatically turn on the fog lights (along with the brights) if it made that much of a difference. Vivid colors are high-contrast to human eyes in bright light, but much less so in dim light (everything just looks gray); it's not clear whether the Tesla model pays much attention to color in low light, or if the HW3 side cameras can even resolve it very well. But I'll try it again after my cameras are done calibrating, and pay attention to whether the visualizer shows the curb at all.

The turn signal flashes are very close to the side cameras themselves, and cause a ton of glare, so they obscure the view as much as they reveal. (On HW3 at least; this may be improved in HW4.) And the side rear area of the car (which hit the curb) is just not very well-lit. It's true that object permanence should have been able to mostly solve this, because the car did have a clearer headlight-illuminated view of the curb before starting the turn. I guess we'll see how it goes with 12.4.x !

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So it's an option that takes away the option to have split screen visualization? Why even waste a spot in the settings menu for that? Did they give the UI project to an intern?

No it does not take away the option to slide back to split screen. It just increases the screen to the big visualization automatically when you engage FSD. But then it stays that way after you disengage! You have to manually shrink it.

Insane.

Not sure what they were thinking. No one should be fiddling around with the screen.

 

[Dewg]

I'm sort of surprised that FSD wouldn't automatically turn on the fog lights (along with the brights) if it made that much of a difference. Vivid colors are high-contrast to human eyes in bright light, but much less so in dim light (everything just looks gray); it's not clear whether the Tesla model pays much attention to color in low light, or if the HW3 side cameras can even resolve it very well. But I'll try it again after my cameras are done calibrating, and pay attention to whether the visualizer shows the curb at all.

The turn signal flashes are very close to the side cameras themselves, and cause a ton of glare, so they obscure the view as much as they reveal. (On HW3 at least; this may be improved in HW4.) And the side rear area of the car (which hit the curb) is just not very well-lit. It's true that object permanence should have been able to mostly solve this, because the car did have a clearer headlight-illuminated view of the curb before starting the turn. I guess we'll see how it goes with 12.4.x !

Here's another test you can do at night. If safe to do, park close to that intersection and bring up the Service Menu (the hidden one) and view camera feeds. Can you see the curbs in the camera feeds, including their color?