FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[jgleigh]

Interesting. Sounds like it is buggy. I guess eventually we will figure out intended behavior.

All I know is I disengage and it stays there.

Bringing up any of the menus will shrink it back down to the normal size. It's very disconcerting when using FSD in full-screen mode and the menu shrinks it back down. I believe it will remain in normal size if you bring up the menu when FSD isn't engaged.

 

[SSDTester#1]

Shrinkage

 

[Tronguy]

I would be surprised (shocked even) if they did this out of warranty. I got the impression it is only done in warranty.

The SO’s daily ride, a 2021 MY, developed a case of water in the left fender camera. Still under warranty; a mobile tech showed in due course and replaced the camera. Notably, this defect not only killed the camera, but it also killed FSD (which had been paid for), emergency braking, and a couple other things. So, yeah, warranty.

While he was working we chatted. He seemed pretty knowledgeable about all things fender camera (he said he’d replaced tons of water damaged cameras). So I mentioned the 2018 M3 that had the camera bleed-through from the turn signal light that I’d had, also with FSD, but back in the day. At the time they had a provisional bill that charged for the replacement. But after the repair they didn’t charge me, a bit of a surprise.

This guy immediately came back with, “There’s a service bulletin out on that!”, and he’d replaced cameras like that.

Um. In my experience, Service Bulletins, which aren’t recalls, often involve work done for free. So, dunno, but if he’s right about the Service Bulletin, looks like there’s what looks like a rumor with teeth about the replacement of the things, gratis.

And, as far as "out of warranty" goes.. If a defective camera (and, mark my words, I've looked into this, it is a defect that allows that bleed-through) affects safety-related stuff like emergency braking, then there's an argument that Out Of Warranty R Us may be involved.

Best way to find out is ask. They can always say no.

 

[JB47394]

I'll double check but this happened yesterday on a highway drive.

No, you're correct; we still change the drive mode when we side click. I think everyone wants a side click to just show that screen, with additional side clicks changing the mode. We also want Minimal Lane Changes to be persistent. How often do drivers change their opinion of Tesla's lane selection logic?

It would be nice if Tesla would design the system for the driving assist that it is, instead of continuing to experiment on us with robotaxi features. But that's just not gonna happen.

For anyone not understanding why the UI is so bad, realize that these are AI engineers. Hardware engineers give us VCR-like controls. Software engineers give us dialog boxes with modes, switches, tabs and such. UI engineers give us only as much functionality as they can package up neatly. AI engineers give us... the Tesla interface.

 

[sleepydoc]

Not yet, but they haven't put any effort into it. (No economies of scale yet to be worth spending the effort on, with such a small number of cars in the fleet.) Once they have their midrange fleet ramping up in 2026, and have positive profit margins, it will make a lot more sense to put resources into seriously developing the autonomous software. This is similar to Tesla's timeline; cars started shipping with HW3-compatible hardware (2.5 with an upgrade path to HW3) in mid-2017, but they didn't deliver the first actual FSD software to customers until late 2021. So I'd cut Lucid some slack here. If I were to buy a Lucid today, it would be with the expectation that it might have very good autonomy a few years from now, not right away.

My concern with Lucid is they will never have economies of scale. They’re in a similar position to Rivian - behind the curve and after the EV boom.

Many people bought Teslas several years ago with the expectation of ‘good autos a few years from now, not right away’ and they’re still waiting. And Tesla’s had sales with which to fund their FSD efforts.

 

[Tronguy]

No, you're correct; we still change the drive mode when we side click. I think everyone wants a side click to just show that screen, with additional side clicks changing the mode. We also want Minimal Lane Changes to be persistent. How often do drivers change their opinion of Tesla's lane selection logic?

It would be nice if Tesla would design the system for the driving assist that it is, instead of continuing to experiment on us with robotaxi features. But that's just not gonna happen.

For anyone not understanding why the UI is so bad, realize that these are AI engineers. Hardware engineers give us VCR-like controls. Software engineers give us dialog boxes with modes, switches, tabs and such. UI engineers give us only as much functionality as they can package up neatly. AI engineers give us... the Tesla interface.

So.. The SO is an actual, professional, User Interface designer. Not precisely for cars: But she's got the degrees and experience. I wanted her take on the new UI which has not (yet) been turned on on her daily driver.

It was interesting. She has two comments:

• She thinks that the screen was designed for the users of a Robotaxi. You got a bunch of paying customers in the seats, with or without a steering wheel, and you'd like them Not To Panic. So, Tesla provides a screen that lets said customers get the idea that the Car Is Working.
• We both think that, if one is doing test drives, that putting up that screen with all the cars and traffic zipping around Really Wows the Marks who might buy the car.

Myself.. I've left it on for now. Over the decades of different UIs (I'm looking at you, Windows and Linux!) people have religiously (and sometimes they are religious arguments) about Every Change To Something That They've Gotten Used To Working With. My natural inclination has been to attempt to get used to it; often (but not always) it'll turn out that the new UI has some thought put into it that will come out with the new habit patterns that a user has to develop.

I remember when Windows XP first arrived: People were installing Windows 95/98 user shells on top. On the other hand, there was the disaster that was Windows Vista. So, with respect to this UI change by Tesla: I'm going to give it a month, then think about it.

 

[fasteddie7]

Looks like the latest app update broke the hands free trunk. It’s odd to see a handful of software glitches and inconsistencies like this. Being an owner since 2016 I’ve only seen a few outages and small issues I recall. Makes me wonder if the software teams and testers were somehow impacted since it seems to happen as of late.

 

[sleepydoc]

So.. The SO is an actual, professional, User Interface designer. Not precisely for cars: But she's got the degrees and experience. I wanted her take on the new UI which has not (yet) been turned on on her daily driver.

It was interesting. She has two comments:

• She thinks that the screen was designed for the users of a Robotaxi. You got a bunch of paying customers in the seats, with or without a steering wheel, and you'd like them Not To Panic. So, Tesla provides a screen that lets said customers get the idea that the Car Is Working.
• We both think that, if one is doing test drives, that putting up that screen with all the cars and traffic zipping around Really Wows the Marks who might buy the car.

Myself.. I've left it on for now. Over the decades of different UIs (I'm looking at you, Windows and Linux!) people have religiously (and sometimes they are religious arguments) about Every Change To Something That They've Gotten Used To Working With. My natural inclination has been to attempt to get used to it; often (but not always) it'll turn out that the new UI has some thought put into it that will come out with the new habit patterns that a user has to develop.

I remember when Windows XP first arrived: People were installing Windows 95/98 user shells on top. On the other hand, there was the disaster that was Windows Vista. So, with respect to this UI change by Tesla: I'm going to give it a month, then think about it.

The thing is, there is actually zero truly useful information in the driving visualization. It’s all eye candy and in recent versions it actually includes less information than it used to (e.g. cones and construction barrels are no longer shown.)
The map shows your route, traffic and other data you can actually use. Even if they are designing it for a robo taxi as you surmise, shouldn’t they get the Software that actually drives the car done before they worry about graphics?

 

[LSDTester#1]

Looks like the latest app update broke the hands free trunk. It’s odd to see a handful of software glitches and inconsistencies like this. Being an owner since 2016 I’ve only seen a few outages and small issues I recall. Makes me wonder if the software teams and testers were somehow impacted since it seems to happen as of late.

I’m confused Eddie. The last update just made the hands free trunk work as an option for me.

 

[JB47394]

She thinks that the screen was designed for the users of a Robotaxi.

Clearly. The entirety of the Model Y and Model 3 experience is robotaxi prototyping. Eliminate the knobs, buttons and dials. Eliminate the stalks. Add lots of entertainment options. The emphasis on the driving visualization. Auto wipers. Auto headlights. Minimal Lane Changes off by default. Simpler and simpler design and construction. It's all robotaxi.

If they wanted to create a driver assist with their technology, it could be amazing. But the driver is an irrelevance to Elon, certainly not someone to cater to. If he ever puts robotaxis on the road, then he will probably create the paradigm shift in society that he's after. Future historians will proclaim how prescient he was. Until cities went walkable.

 

[fasteddie7]

I’m confused Eddie. The last update just made the hands free trunk work as an option for me.

That’s for model 3 owners specifically
But I just added it to the list of weird issues these days (missing features depending on what version you update from) that made me wonder if some of the software team was let go and now it’s showing with some things slipping through the cracks.

 

[dachshund]

Looks like the latest app update broke the hands free trunk. It’s odd to see a handful of software glitches and inconsistencies like this. Being an owner since 2016 I’ve only seen a few outages and small issues I recall. Makes me wonder if the software teams and testers were somehow impacted since it seems to happen as of late.

Bad regression testing.

 

[SSDTester#1]

My concern with Lucid is they will never have economies of scale. They’re in a similar position to Rivian - behind the curve and after the EV boom.

Many people bought Teslas several years ago with the expectation of ‘good autos a few years from now, not right away’ and they’re still waiting. And Tesla’s had sales with which to fund their FSD efforts.

It doesn’t help that Lucid cars are also hideous. Who did they design them for? 70 year olds?

 

[swedge]

Now on 2024.14.9 (FSD 12.3.6 still).

I don't like and turned off the full screen visualization. At least while evaluating FSD, I need to anticipate what the car is going to do, so that I can intervene quickly when it does something wrong. So, I don't use automatic speeding, or extra lane changes, and I need to watch the planned route to anticipate turn lanes and such. I check these features and report problems, but for routine driving I don't use them.

With this update I noticed three cases of changes in stop sign behavior. 1) It seems to be stopping considerably closer to the limit line, though it is still slowing down too soon and imediatly creeping up to the line. 2) The nav screen used to show two stop signs which were removed a year ago, and with this release, they have disappeared. My map data was updated after that drive, so where that change occurred is a mystery. 3) A new temporary stop for a short one way segment (where a falling tree ripped up the pavement) was handled correctly til this update. It used to stop, and then proceed when there was no opposite direction traffic. Now it just stops and sits there. I gave up after 30 seconds and nudged it to proceed.

 

[gsmith123]

Future historians will proclaim how prescient he was. Until cities went walkable

America is incapable of walkable cities.

I’m not that bullish on Tesla FSD prospects (certainly not a “robotaxis live in 2 years” person) but I firmly believe robotaxis will become a thing before US metro and suburban areas become substantially less car dependent. Technology has a strong proven track record of progress.

I live in Denver for the record which is not the worst. Yet even here (as of today) one of the major metro lines can’t do faster than 10mph because of track problems and underinvestment in maintenance.

Don’t get me started on all the other minor problems with public transit and walkable/bikeable areas here

 

[LSDTester#1]

America is incapable of walkable cities.

I’m not that bullish on Tesla FSD prospects (certainly not a “robotaxis live in 2 years” person) but I firmly believe robotaxis will become a thing before US metro and suburban areas become substantially less car dependent. Technology has a strong proven track record of progress.

I live in Denver for the record which is not the worst. Yet even here (as of today) one of the major metro lines can’t do faster than 10mph because of track problems and underinvestment in maintenance.

Don’t get me started on all the other minor problems with public transit and walkable/bikeable areas here

Shrooms are recreational there now yes?

 

[willow_hiller]

Chuck has a full Unprotected Left on 12.4.1 video in the pipeline. While we wait, he's posted a clip of one good turn. Based on what he says it sounds like a prior turn wasn't as confident (although he may be talking about 12.3.6):

https://twitter.com/x/status/1802413189163798548

Edit: and a second highlight where Chuck says it's an improvement in latency and decision-making over 12.3.6:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1802415671394828725

 

[gsmith123]

The second clip he posted was good too.

Car is going to the median now too on 12.4, I think that was gone in 12.3.

So, progress, I think. As people have described it 12.4 is seeming like true 2 steps forward and 2 steps back kind of release.

 

[MP3Mike]

Chuck's ULT video for FSD 12.4.1 is out:

Interesting that in at least one case Chuck said that there wasn't enough room, but FSD went for it and made it just fine with lots of room/time to spare...

He disengaged once, but it looked like it would have been fine, and even at the end he questioned if that disengagement was appropriate or not.

 

[JulienW]

Still it is Sunday and Chuck needs to do his "test" on a workday in the morning to make it "official". No way will Alan except a Sunday drive as proof.