FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[Supcom]

FSD v12 is nicer than some Tesla owners without FSD. Today my car wanted to change lane to exit freeway but another Tesla owner just moved up and did not leave any gap for my car. I had to disengage and manually change lane to avoid missing the exit.

12.3 had a tendency to fake a lane change when the gap was too small. It felt like it did it on purpose to get the trailing car in the other lane to make room. The scary part was that's exactly what happened and FSD got enough room for the lane change. Happened multiple times.

I haven't used 12.3.3 enough to see if it still knows the trick.

 

[OxBrew]

First drive on v12.3.3. I'm still a hard no, not ready, but I'll admit it's better than V11.?.? on a 2024 demo last month (which tried to crash several times per block).

2021 Y (USS) never paid or subscribed to anything.

OK, it does reasonably well with the normal stuff from a purely car control POV. As a safe thing to use, total fail.

1 mile trip home from pizza shop, from parking lot exit, through one 40mph UPL, and a couple stop signs. Hilly mildly curvy residential streets.

Speed was fine (set absolute offset to +20% and dialed it down on the fly. 20-25 zones in the neighborhood, went right up to 28-30, which was pretty fast for some spots, landed on 27 max (this is a quiet area, most people drive slow in the evenings).

UPL seemed OK (the march of 1's has begun! It did 1 ok!)

4 way unprotected intersection, blew through it without even slowing to check. Maybe safe from FSD pov, fairly good vis both ways, but as driver monitoring, I could not comfortably confirm that. It needs to let me follow along at what I'm able to comprehend, not over speed my human ability to maintain situational awareness. Fatal flaw, try again. That they let this out in the wild is incomprehensible to me.

Stop signs were ok, had to use the go pedal on one of 2, to keep ROW, oncoming car was jumpy, ready to pounce.

Had a sharp right (more than 90°, like 135°) from a downhill arterial onto a side street, 30mph down to 20. Waited last minute to slow down, wife said "really, that fast right here? ha ha, like the kid's first time" Slowed smoothly, but very late.

Approaching home, it pulled into the parking lane (unmarked street) and was creeping along the sidewalk a block from the house, next to a neighbor out walking their dog. Had to disengage to not seem like a stalker.

Overall, impressed with the car handling, never felt out of control, but shocked at some of the misses. Several defects in one mile. Not a good release candidate.

I'm a mechanical engineer. If this had my name on it in any way, I'd reject the release to the public.

Tomorrow I'm going to test it on one weird UPL near the hospital that I tried before on the demo with v11. Not holding my breath (its a weird one, highspeed down hill traffic from right on an inside sweeper corner, partially obscured by trees. Very tricky even for humans).

Then I'm checking out, this is ridiculous.

 

[jebinc]

I’m starting to see some reports of FSD from the media and others that have never tried it before. They all focus on the mistakes the system made like nearly stopping for no reason and running a red light. Those of us who experienced V11 are delighted at the improvement but to others the only thing they have to compare it to is 100% human driving and FSD doesn’t live up to that standard yet. It’s a shame Musk couldn’t have waited a little longer, when the system is more polished. I’m concerned that FSD will get an undeserved negative reputation.

Right. For the beta crowd here that has live with (sh)it for more than three years, Tesla had successfully managed to lower our expectations.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

it was 10% for "average". (72 in a 65 zone). The conditions weren't conducive to running experiments to get the other values.

5%/10%/15%

 

[arnolddeleon]

I finally got to take 12.3.3 for a drive. Most of my V12 driving had been with 12.3 and short stint with 12.3.1 on a loaner.

TL;DR; There were magic moments. As a driver assist, I think I can see why it might have reached a "good enough" for a launch.

Average mode
Auto Set Speed Offset enabled

My drive to work was all surface streets today. Either Tesla wanted surface street data (this is a joke) or traffic conditions made that the best route.
Zero intervention or disengagements. I have start it from the street in front our driveway, it doesn't give me the option to engage from the driveway. I disengage just short the driveway for the parking at work. This is roughly a 7-mile, 20-minute drive.

The stop to perform the unprotected left from our street was short of where I usually stop but it is where I would stop initially if there was a cop watching. My only gripe was the creep was a little slow. This is only small ding would give this drive. There were other stops that I thought it did very well along the way. It correctly dealt with a stop sign that V11 never got right. This was one of the first things I tested with V12 and it has consistently done it pretty well. Acceleration after stops was "brisk" but not unreasonably so. But, I can see why some people might call it too fast.

Lane selection was on point. There were a couple "magic" moments. One in particular made me go "wow". A car ahead for some unknown reason stopped in the leftmost lane, the lane we were in. As we approached, the car deftly put a signal right, changed over to the next lane. The quickly after that, signaled back to left lane (we were going to need to make a left turn). There was a similar for a slowing car in the right lane earlier but this happened relatively fast and I was getting ready to intervene and disengage.

Speed control and stopping was reasonable in my view. I've posted on this before. Nothing new observed.

This was practically close to a perfect drive.

The return drive was almost a mirror image with one notable exception. I had one disengagement. There was car that was turning right from the single lane that we were in. One of the biggest improvements in V12 is the "lack of panic" when there is slowing car that is turning away. The forward collision alert went off in the car (I have it set to Medium), likely because the car paused with its "butt" hanging out a little. I took control and moved the car slightly to the left as reflex response. I strongly suspect, FSD V12 was correct in that it had room to pass. I've certainly played the probability game myself when manually driving in similar situations. I would delay slowing down on the expectation that the car will be clear before I get there knowing that if it does not, I will be making a high jerk stop. This is probably of the most significant improvements in V12 in experience.

I got to do some bonus driving in the afternoon when there was a call for a kitten transport. Most of this drive was on the freeway. Nothing much to report here. I had a couple of disengagements when I moved the car over the left to make room for lane splitting motorcycles. At ends of each of the drive there was surface street driving. There were already previous discussions on the automatic speed offset. I pretty much end up overriding up most of the time anyway.

I had intervened on the surface street part of the drive down on couple of times to increase the speed because speed control was being a little slow.

I disengaged on the return trip for a right turn onto Lawrence Expressway, a relatively high speed road. My wife was in the car, and I didn't want to closely supervise how well it was going to do the creep to see.

On the drives in unfamiliar places the car felt just a hair "too assertive/fast" I was ok with it, but I was covering the brake and trying to anticipate if I was going to need an intervention.

If I was evaluating it as only a driver assist system, then I think it was fine. V11 on the freeway has been at this point a little while now. The points where it didn't feel "perfect" where situations where I could comfortably take over. I think this is akin to being the pilot in command with the role of pilot monitoring while FSD is the pilot flying. I'm not a pilot but I've watched enough YouTube videos I think to get the gist of the roles. I spent around two hours on the road today and I was ok with the "other driver/pilot".

I have read plenty of reports of failures and experienced enough to know it is not perfect and will never be perfect. But I do feel there is net positive utility at this point and presumably we just keep going up from this.

 

[JHCCAZ]

A car ahead for some unknown reason stopped in the leftmost lane, the lane we were in. As we approached, the car deftly put a signal right, changed over to the next lane. The quickly after that, signaled back to left lane (we were going to need to make a left turn).

Question about this one: one of my pet peeves about unsafe driving is when people see a car stopped / slowing for an unknown reason, and they whip into the other lane so they don't have to slow down themselves. This can be super dangerous if you can't see the reason. It easily could be a pedestrian, child or an animal crossing the road. The right thing to do is to slow down and assess what is going on before accelerating past the lead car.

This isn't a rare hypothetical, I'm aware of several deaths caused by this very situation in our city over the years I've been here.

So in this case, do you think that FSD could really see what was happening, and was not moving so fast that it couldn't react to a situation as described above?

 

[JHCCAZ]

I made a gesture to a hot chick the other day, it didn't work.
Turns out the way I moved my hand was about 3 millimeters too much to the left, instead of more upright. So she took it as "move along ", instead of "Hey, let's talk"
Come to think of it, maybe my hand was moving too fast, or too slow.
Or the speed of the gesture wasn't perfect.. oh well, better luck next time

CPAs picking up chicks... I couldn't help but think of this example:

(I'm not saying I was a whole lot better at this, from the engineering side )

 

[arnolddeleon]

Question about this one: one of my pet peeves about unsafe driving is when people see a car stopped / slowing for an unknown reason, and they whip into the other lane so they don't have to slow down themselves. This can be super dangerous if you can't see the reason. It easily could be a pedestrian, child or an animal crossing the road. The right thing to do is to slow down and assess what is going on before accelerating past the lead car.

This isn't a rare hypothetical, I'm aware of several deaths caused by this very situation in our city over the years I've been here.

So in this case, do you think that FSD could really see what was happening, and was not moving so fast that it couldn't react to a situation as described above?

In this case, yes. The stopped car had looked like it was signaling a left turn where there was a median. We were far enough back to have good situational awareness. I could see it clearly enough and early that I was anticipating what the action would have been. V11 would have driven up to the stopped car and then decide that wanted to get around and it would have been much more difficult. I've occasionally made the mistake of being too close to car and I can't go around because I can't get enough visibility. This wasn't whip around move. This was a look ahead and anticipate and smoothly do something.

I should add the V12 in general seems to keep better spacing in front it. I've noted this improvement earlier with V12. V11 would seem always charge to close the gap. V12 "seems" to have more "situational awareness". For example, I previously posted about V12 staying on the correct side of a "KEEP CLEAR" but closing the gap to the lead car later down the road. It is willing to allow the distance to closed temporarily as the situation warrants (so it is not slamming the brakes all the time with cut ins) but it seems to fall back to the spacing that I would hold in nice gentle manner.

 

[chado]

I'm trying to love FSD I really am and I give it every chance to succeed but it is no way close to any human driver I would want to drive with.

It now makes sense why FSD isn't valued at anything upon trade in at dealerships, I wouldn't pay anything for this and I can't believe anyone would pay $5 - 15k for it.

For now I will keep trying it everyday, leaving comments for Tesla about why I disengaged, but man this hype is really a let down, I'm actually sad at how bad it is.

I hyped it up to my friends before I got the trial, after I got the free trial they asked me how great it is, all I could say was "its ok" lol

 

[oneday]

Wife’s car just got the 12.3.3 2024 update from 12.3.1.

My car is still on 2023 12.3.1 has anyone noticed any specific differences between these two releases, aside from FSD beta being named FSD (supervised)?

 

[JHCCAZ]

I'm trying to love FSD I really am and I give it every chance to succeed but it is no way close to any human driver I would want to drive with.

I would guess and hope that you've experienced at least a couple of drives on the latest v12.3.x branch. I would pretty much agree that your statement, about not being close to human driving, was quite defensible prior to mid-March of 2024.

Assuming that's the case, of course there are some Tesla users all over North America who remain unimpressed or even hostile. But a shockingly high percentage are willing to say that it really exhibits far more of the characteristics of a decent or even a very good human driver, in the vast majority of situations encountered. I've seen no one who says it's flawless or complete or finished, but most agree that it's far better now.

With you being in Hawaii (which unfortunately I've never visited), I have no sense of whether the road and traffic scenarios might be somewhat different, the way they really are across various regions and states on the mainland. Even before the first v12 release to the user fleet, Elon mentioned that it was too specifically trained in California and also in that typically fairer weather. They're clearly aware of these issues and it seems that they are already closing the gap, with the last release deployed across the USA and Canada. Still, I think it's reasonable to think that Hawaii could need more attention and you'll see notable improvements upcoming.

It now makes sense why FSD isn't valued at anything upon trade in at dealerships, I wouldn't pay anything for this and I can't believe anyone would pay $5 - 15k for it.

This is a longstanding argument, and valid, but ignores the forward-looking considerations. FSD has been and for now remains a thing for early adopters, not for the general user population. The whole idea is that it will get there, and someday people will muse over the notion that such a thing didn't even exist for over a century.

For now I will keep trying it everyday, leaving comments for Tesla about why I disengaged, but man this hype is really a let down, I'm actually sad at how bad it is.

Well that's the right attitude and that's exactly why Elon wanted to push it why using the free trial program. Far too many people on TMC have missed this point, thinking that it's all about a revenue pump, and that Elon expects the take rate will skyrocket overnight. This timing is all about getting disengagement data and real world video plus telemetry.

I hyped it up to my friends before I got the trial, after I got the free trial they asked me how great it is, all I could say was "its ok" lol

Even with the prior versions which were not nearly as good, it was very common for people to feel that the software got better after a week or two of use. Give it a little time, get used to it and if you've got any open-mindedness at all you'll probably enjoy it more after a little use. Also don't give up on it to the extent that you won't give the next version, and the one after that, a decent trial and learning curve to see what's happening. In any case thanks for the report and for continuing to work with it as long as you can.

 

[JHCCAZ]

Wife’s car just got the 12.3.3 2024 update from 12.3.1.

My car is still on 2023 12.3.1 has anyone noticed any specific differences between these two releases, aside from FSD beta being named FSD (supervised)?

I never had 12.3.1, just jumped from 12.3 to 12.3.3. I've noticed some differences, overall an increasingly competent handling of a few weirdnesses that happen in everyday driving. Also, there's mostly agreement that the speed control issues (especially going too slow sometimes) are better but not solved.

On the other hand, to me it feels like there is perhaps more evidence of awkward "override code", or "guardrails" or whatever you want to call it, that may have been overlaid for safety concerns but really need to become a naturally trained competence of the system.

For example, I think the latest version has some tendency to turn into bus lanes, road shoulders, bike lanes and so on, where the original 12.3 showed me very little of those mistakes. Others have mentioned this also, and I'm guessing it's because there were a few disturbing examples of 12.3 turning into oncoming traffic lanes, probably confusing the proper destination lane with a non-drivable road shoulder or other non-travel lane. If the development team decided that they needed to avoid the leftmost lane choice when there's any doubt, that could explain how the latest version got pushed towards these annoying but much less dangerous errors.

In any case, I do think 12.3.3 is different from 12.3, and it seems also different from 12.3.1 based on videos (like Chuck Cook's) and various users reports here.

 

[JulienW]

Noticed that today, was sure I was going to curb rash on 2 occasions today on left hand turns, came so close to taking over but trusted FSD. In hindsight I should have jerked the wheel to correct as I was probably only a couple of inches away at best.

An inch or a mile a miss is a miss.

 

[JulienW]

I learned a new word today

Wonder if it is more of a southern thing. I have heard the term "conniption fit" all my life, especially about kids and kinda thought it was just colloquialism. Does seem weird though.

 

[JulienW]

Let's remember that V12 is not V11+1.

Actually on the highway it is.

 

[JulienW]

Correct, the wave came like a tsunami

You know what a tsunami does to your car's software when you are stranded on Mount Fuji? That is me.

 

[JulienW]

If FSD continues to improve as much as it has and more people start wanting it do you think it will increase the value of used cars that have it even more?

HELL yes and you should INVEST in my Model 3 before it is too late. PM me for details before someone else realizes the EXTREME appreciation that is about to happen and beats you to it.

 

[pimfram]

Could be a coincidence but it is crazy windy today and the car did an amazing job of keeping me centered in the lane. In previous versions it seemed to weave a nauseating amount but today felt great.

 

[Midnightsun]

Is it safe to assume you didn't get V12 in Canada yet?

I am running 12.3.3 on both the Y and the S. Been about a week now so yes we have it in Canada.

 

[primedive]

New drive today -- I get much better behavior by driving with auto max speed OFF. I set my offset to 10% which gives good behavior on the slower streets, and is also easy to just quickly scroll the wheel if I need to adjust the speed. My problem with auto max is going way too fast on residential streets, and it's much easier to get the car to go faster than to get it to go slower, so auto max speed OFF works better for me.

I don't seem to have the issue where it's limited to 5 over, which is great because that would make FSD pretty useless in a lot of places for me. Only issue this morning really was one improper lane selection (always at the same place, so I keep reporting it), and one dry wipe.