FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[cyborgLIS]

12.3.4 regression: did NOT move R into the breakdown lane while slowing to make a R turn to give followers more room to pass (which they will no matter what). May be more legal but certainly less customary and not as safe.

I'm not sure what the law states but it's pretty much universal to pull to the side of the road when making a turn, including using the shoulder to enter a store or take an exit on the highway. Similar to crossing a yellow line and momentarily driving on the opposite side of the road to get around obstructions.

Have sub-versions of v12 been making use of the shoulder like this? I've never known v11 to do so.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Have sub-versions of v12 been making use of the shoulder like this? I've never known v11 to do so

V11 does better than v12 in my single situation I encounter.

Can’t let v12 do it anyway even on the occasion it decides to do something like that, because the curb is too close.

On the other hand a situation I rarely encounter v12 did better than v11.

So v11 did it while v12 does not.

And also v12 does it while v11 did not.

As one would expect.

 

[JB47394]

I'm not sure what the law states but it's pretty much universal to pull to the side of the road when making a turn, including using the shoulder to enter a store or take an exit on the highway. Similar to crossing a yellow line and momentarily driving on the opposite side of the road to get around obstructions.

NHTSA will require that autonomous cars follow the law. There's some wiggle room in any law, but they saw fit to require full stops at stop signs, despite it being pretty much universal that people don't.

What we'll get is NHTSA requiring systems to abide by the various laws. People will be inconvenienced, complain, and the laws will be changed to allow for the new reality.

 

[Yelobird]

I'm not sure what the law states but it's pretty much universal to pull to the side of the road when making a turn, including using the shoulder to enter a store or take an exit on the highway. Similar to crossing a yellow line and momentarily driving on the opposite side of the road to get around obstructions.

Have sub-versions of v12 been making use of the shoulder like this? I've never known v11 to do so.

Then I must be a bad driver or law breaker. I stay on the street as designated by the lines and make my turn. I have no interest sliding into the break down lane hunting to find every nail and piece of glass collected in that side area.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Then I must be a bad driver or law breaker. I stay on the street as designated by the lines and make my turn. I have no interest sliding into the break down lane hunting to find every nail and piece of glass collected in that side area.

Here's an example of a location where it is legally allowed to move over within 100 feet of the turn (and of course it is advisable, safer, and courteous to do so, since traffic coming up behind at 55mph may not be able to move over). v12 no longer does this - I disengage every time there is any traffic around.

Moving over also signals to turning traffic from Sunset Ridge that it is likely safe to turn, and it slightly improves their visibility for other oncoming traffic, slightly reducing the chances of a serious collision.

 

[bdwalters]

Then I must be a bad driver or law breaker. I stay on the street as designated by the lines and make my turn. I have no interest sliding into the break down lane hunting to find every nail and piece of glass collected in that side area.

If I don’t use the shoulder as a turn lane in Austin off 360, I’ll most assuredly get rear ended at high speed.

 

[cyborgLIS]

Then I must be a bad driver or law breaker. I stay on the street as designated by the lines and make my turn. I have no interest sliding into the break down lane hunting to find every nail and piece of glass collected in that side area.

Even on the highway, you never use the shoulder lane? Coming to a near stop with rearward traffic at speeds of 50mph and over?

 

[Dennisis]

FSD follows ridiculously far on the highway. In heavy traffic doing around 60 mph in the left lane, you can’t leave a ginormous gap between you and the car ahead without getting honked at and passed in the right lane. It also tries way too aggressively to maintain this absurd following distance. When someone passes you on the right, (which, again, is going to happen because they assume YOU are the slow car, when in reality you are just following at an insane distance) and then gets in the left lane in front of you, FSD slams on the breaks in an attempt to maintain this distance. Unusable-disengage.

FSD Beta v11.x

The next big milestone for FSD is 11. It is a significant upgrade and fundamental changes to several parts of the FSD stack including totally new way to train the perception NN. From AI day and Lex Fridman interview we have a good sense of what might be included. - Object permanence both...

teslamotorsclub.com

Agreed, have been saying this for a while though the more "Zen" crowd here preaches patience my friend...

 

[JulienW]

NHTSA will require that autonomous cars follow the law. There's some wiggle room in any law, but they saw fit to require full stops at stop signs, despite it being pretty much universal that people don't.

What we'll get is NHTSA requiring systems to abide by the various laws. People will be inconvenienced, complain, and the laws will be changed to allow for the new reality.

Not to sure about this as a blanket statement since NHTSA mission is not to proactively enforce laws but to promote safety. Also the rolling Stop sign mandate was because of FSD Beta driver complaints to NHTSA that it was unsafe (not that it was illegal). When complaints reach a certain threshold an investigation is triggered. Had there been no complaints it is VERY likely we would still have rolling stops.

However any car driving autonomously in L3 or higher will automatically put the manufacture at legal liability since the car IS driving and there is no person to hold liable since everyone is a passenger. So the manufacture will enforce all laws because of this. So in effect the results will be the same.

NHTSA

...The FSD Beta system may allow the vehicle to act unsafe around intersections, such as traveling straight through an intersection while in a turn-only lane, entering a stop sign-controlled intersection without coming to a complete stop, or proceeding into an intersection during a steady yellow traffic signal without due caution....

 

[cyborgLIS]

Not to sure about this as a blanket statement since NHTSA mission is not to proactively enforce laws but to promote safety. Also the rolling Stop sign mandate was because of FSD Beta driver complaints to NHTSA that it was unsafe (not that it was illegal). When complaints reach a certain threshold an investigation is triggered. Had there been no complaints it is VERY likely we would still have rolling stops.

However any car driving autonomously in L3 or higher will automatically put the manufacture at legal liability since the car IS driving and there is no person to hold liable since everyone is a passenger. So the manufacture will enforce all laws because of this. So in effect the results will be the same.

NHTSA

I wish I was around for the rolling stop days so I could try it for myself, but wasn't that an option you could toggle? If someone felt unsafe they should have turned it off rather than tattling to NHTSA. Or was it the non-FSD drivers on the road who were making the complaints?

I wish the car at the very least would not stop so far behind the stop line. Stopping at the line is more than prudent, and is more than what most human drivers do. Ideally it would creep to a point of visibility before performing the complete stop to avoid the potential double stop.

 

[JulienW]

I wish I was around for the rolling stop days so I could try it for myself, but wasn't that an option you could toggle? If someone felt unsafe they should have turned it off rather than tattling to NHTSA. Or was it the non-FSD drivers on the road who were making the complaints?

I wish the car at the very least would not stop so far behind the stop line. Stopping at the line is more than prudent, and is more than what most human drivers do. Ideally it would creep to a point of visibility before performing the complete stop to avoid the potential double stop.

No option, it just did it and was VERY natural to the way people actually drive. The main problem I think was it tended to be more constant at near 5MPH and while that would be fine and not noticeable most of the time it is relative and seem a little aggressive in certain situations. I bet with the way V12 performs dynamically it would roll them at a very natural speed. But we will never know.

 

[rlsd]

v12.3.4 is too nice to people who want to change lane to its lane.

An old man did not know his left blinker was on on freeway 56 today. His car was at 50 mph.
My car was behind his. I changed lane to the left to pass him but FSD did not want to pass. There were other cars behind me. People go at 70-75 mph on that lane.
I pressed the accelerator but FSD still wanted to wait for the man to change to my lane. I honked but the man did not hear (probably too busy talking with his woman passenger).

I continued to press the accelerator harder for about 15-30 seconds and fininally my car went past his.

I think car manufacturers should automatically turn off blinkers if there is no action after a specified duration.
Similarly they should automatically turn on headlights after dark. I saw many drivers forgetting to turn on headlights.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

There were other cars behind me. People go at 70-75 mph on that lane.
I continued to press the accelerator harder for about 15-30 seconds and fininally my car went past his.

So, for 15 - 30 seconds, you joined with the old man and held up the traffic behind you instead of disengaging, passing, moving into the lane of the car you were overtaking, and reengaging FSD.

FSDS is an Advanced Driver Assistance System, not an Advancing Driver As-a-holes System.

Had you parked in the left lane trying to get by with NO-ONE behind you, then it is an experiment to see how long it takes, pushing the go-pedal, until FSDSupervised finally listens to the driver doing the supervising.

What you did was not an experiment.

 

[rlsd]

So, for 15 - 30 seconds, you joined with the old man and held up the traffic behind you instead of disengaging, passing, moving into the lane of the car you were overtaking, and reengaging FSD.

FSDS is an Advanced Driver Assistance System, not an Advancing Driver As-a-holes System.

Had you parked in the left lane trying to get by with NO-ONE behind you, then it is an experiment to see how long it takes, pushing the go-pedal, until FSDSupervised finally listens to the driver doing the supervising.

What you did was not an experiment.

I should have but did not think clearly. Besides I wanted to push FSD limit.

 

[KLam]

I wish I was around for the rolling stop days so I could try it for myself, but wasn't that an option you could toggle? If someone felt unsafe they should have turned it off rather than tattling to NHTSA. Or was it the non-FSD drivers on the road who were making the complaints?

I wish the car at the very least would not stop so far behind the stop line. Stopping at the line is more than prudent, and is more than what most human drivers do. Ideally it would creep to a point of visibility before performing the complete stop to avoid the potential double stop.

You just not get the rolling stop assist from FSD supervised. You can do it yourself by using the accelerator a little bit and even move the stop line further up. That will also help a little on the curbing issue.

 

[Yelobird]

Here's an example of a location where it is legally allowed to move over within 100 feet of the turn (and of course it is advisable, safer, and courteous to do so, since traffic coming up behind at 55mph may not be able to move over). v12 no longer does this - I disengage every time there is any traffic around.

Moving over also signals to turning traffic from Sunset Ridge that it is likely safe to turn, and it slightly improves their visibility for other oncoming traffic, slightly reducing the chances of a serious collision.

I’m aware of lanes like that which are designed and stripped to do exactly what you said which I agree. My reply as you can see is to those that want to take the shoulder (blocked by solid white line and collector of every sharp object swept to the side of the road) or the break down emergency lane used for emergency or dead vehicle. Not turn lanes.

 

[aronth5]

(Sometimes I wonder what is Tesla doing. Speed limit detection should be a dramatically simpler AI problem than many other things they’re doing and after 5 years of HW3 vehicles on the road it still doesn’t work well? Why??)

It's difficult because speed limit signs are not a reliable way to determine your speed even with offsets and settings to help FSD. Just compare normal traffic speed to posted mph signs. So I don't see why you would think controlling speed is "dramatically simpler" with AI. Just look at all the posts on the forum on speed control.

That is why Tesla has totally changed their approach with V12 with auto max which tries to predict speed based on road conditions and traffic around you. For me it's gotten better and I need to change speeds much less with V12 then I did in V11 on city/streets. In V11 and earlier builds I was frequently spinning the scroll wheel up and down. On City/streets (mostly 2 lane roads) I leave speed control to auto max. Seems to have improved since the first V12 build I got.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

changed their approach with V12 with auto max

And in manual mode.

Old approach only exists in v11.

 

[PianoAl]

I pressed the accelerator but FSD still wanted to wait for the man to change to my lane.

That's the first I've heard of FSD ignoring the driver's intentions. You pressed the accelerator, and the car did not respond? Maybe you just tapped it and waited?

 

[Dewg]

I wish I was around for the rolling stop days so I could try it for myself, but wasn't that an option you could toggle? If someone felt unsafe they should have turned it off rather than tattling to NHTSA. Or was it the non-FSD drivers on the road who were making the complaints?

I wish the car at the very least would not stop so far behind the stop line. Stopping at the line is more than prudent, and is more than what most human drivers do. Ideally it would creep to a point of visibility before performing the complete stop to avoid the potential double stop.

The modes turned it on or off. Chill mode was off, average and assertive were on.