FSD v12.x (end to end AI)

[diplomat33]

I really hate the sudden, out-of-the-blue, red hands on wheel alert. They are just so jarring. You can be cruising along just fine and then suddenly the car is blaring at you to grab the wheel immediately. On my drive to work this morning I got 2 of them back to back that scared the crap out of me. The first one, I think was due to a dip in the road where construction removed a bit of the asphalt. FSD was fine and then suddenly freaked out when the car drove over the dip. And then a moment later, I got a second alert when I think the wheel spinned a bit on some wet gravel.

 

[aronth5]

I really hate the sudden, out-of-the-blue, red hands on wheel alert. They are just so jarring. You can be cruising along just fine and then suddenly the car is blaring at you to grab the wheel immediately. On my drive to work this morning I got 2 of them back to back that scared the crap out of me. The first one, I think was due to a dip in the road where construction removed a bit of the asphalt. FSD was fine and then suddenly freaked out when the car drove over the dip. And then a moment later, I got a second alert when I think the wheel spinned a bit on some wet gravel.

Agree very jarring.
Since V12 the only time I've gotten the red hands on wheel alert (x3) is when I'm merging on the highway. I suspect the failure is somehow related to the handoff, or lack of, from auto max to V11 highway software. Anyone else seen this?

 

[enemji]

Agree very jarring.
Since V12 the only time I've gotten the red hands on wheel alert (x3) is when I'm merging on the highway. I suspect the failure is somehow related to the handoff, or lack of, from auto max to V11 highway software. Anyone else seen this?

Was the sunrise or sunset looking into the camera? That is the only 1 time I have had the devil red hands come up when I was entering the highway going up the ramp and the sun looking directly into the camera.

 

[swedge]

I think NHTSA needs to respond when they detect a series of safety related issues and/or vehicle owner complaints.

The problem is that "safety related" is so broad as to be meaningless. For example, a system which successfully improves safety is "safety related", but does it need a response? NHTSA is not measuring the safety of these systems. They are instead responding to incidents and complaints. Until every car can completely avoid every potential collision, there will be incidents and complaints. If they concentrate on driver assistance features, they will always find crashes. They failed to ask how many is too many.

NHTSA speculated that more attention nags would improve safety, so Telsa made changes to the nags. Now HHTSA says crashes still happen, but does not measure if the changes reduced or increased crashes, only that the changes did not eliminate crashes.

I agree that crashes should be looked at to identify improvements which could be made. That is what has made traveling on US airlines far safer than driving. But counting entries in a list of crashes is not a test of anything, much less a proof. Complaints are even less meaningful for various reasons.

Every year we kill over 40,000 people on roads in the US . Many of the dead are pedestrians and passengers, innocent victims. Very few are caused by mechanical failures. Drunk, distracted and sleeping drivers are common causes. Pedestrians are often hit by drivers looking for other cars from the left when they are turning right.

From my experience with FSD, I suspect that it is dramatically reducing fatalities: never drunk or inattentive or asleep, and looking in all directions all the time. I think NHTSA should be looking at this question: do these driver assistance features save lives, and if so, how many? Publicizing their nit-picking over how often the screen should blink blue simply looks political.

 

[Todd Burch]

Agree very jarring.
Since V12 the only time I've gotten the red hands on wheel alert (x3) is when I'm merging on the highway. I suspect the failure is somehow related to the handoff, or lack of, from auto max to V11 highway software. Anyone else seen this?

The only time I've seen it was in departing the interstate. Happened right on the ramp, so yes--similar scenario.

 

[swedge]

Agree very jarring.
Since V12 the only time I've gotten the red hands on wheel alert (x3) is when I'm merging on the highway. I suspect the failure is somehow related to the handoff, or lack of, from auto max to V11 highway software. Anyone else seen this?

Interesting. I got the Loud Red Hands only once, but like you just as I entered the freeway.

 

[aronth5]

Was the sunrise or sunset looking into the camera? That is the only 1 time I have had the devil red hands come up when I was entering the highway going up the ramp and the sun looking directly into the camera.

No.

 

[Twiglett]

I really hate the sudden, out-of-the-blue, red hands on wheel alert. They are just so jarring. You can be cruising along just fine and then suddenly the car is blaring at you to grab the wheel immediately. On my drive to work this morning I got 2 of them back to back that scared the crap out of me. The first one, I think was due to a dip in the road where construction removed a bit of the asphalt. FSD was fine and then suddenly freaked out when the car drove over the dip. And then a moment later, I got a second alert when I think the wheel spinned a bit on some wet gravel.

Fully agree with this.
The big problem I have with it is that the very first thing you have to do is be looking out to see what is about to come and hit us - then once you have decided everything is safe you can check the screen just in time to see the FSD message disappearing off the screen (the message more likely to be about it mistaking a dark patch on the road as another vehicle).

 

[lzolman]

So I have to wonder - why don't they just put a 'speed limit 55' sign instead of 'end of 25' sign? The cost is the same but one option is completely clear while the other is very ambiguous and requires you know what the previous limit was.

I'm thinking: the road crew has a set of signs they use whenever they set up a work area. The first ones say "speed limit 25 ahead", "speed limit 25", ..., "End 25 speed limit". They can use those same signs everywhere.

 

[sleepydoc]

Here's one simple reason: suppose they change the default speed limit for that road type? Now they don't have to change those signs.

But if they change the 25 mph limit they have to change both signs instead on just one.

 

[PianoAl]

Of course the driver had plenty of time to intervene before. And cyclists always have the right to play out their inner Darwin on tight roads in these days of distracted drivers.

Otherwise it's an unsafe move for FSD to attempt but we've seen it before with blind curves.

I might have used the same language as the driver.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1787197847198446005

I saw this again today. I'm a cyclist and I appreciate motorists giving them room, but the car went way too far over the double yellow line. I'd upload the video, but it's similar to the one posted.

 

[enemji]

Leaving town is the End of 25 speed limit sign, but the car continues to display the limit as 25 for many miles.

This appeara to be so ridiculously political. The city is willing to identify its speed limits but does not want to play pass thr baton with the highway authorities. So they are not going to put themselves in a spot where they will speak on behalf of them to identify the highway speed limit.

 

[rlsd]

I had 3 safety disengagemnts in the last 2 days but I am too lazy to describe here. Tesla does not care to read TMC.

FSD did one good thing though. When FSD just exited from freeway to a 50 mph street, it saw a guy riding an electric bike in reverse direction on the bike lane (about 15 - 20 ft from my car). Crazy. FSD sounded alert but did not disengage and continued to go.

 

[sleepydoc]

Any idea when Tesla will move highway driving to the new stack? Is this something we will see in v12.4, 12.5 etc or is it a v13 thing?

“2 weeks”

 

[sleepydoc]

Link: "Given the total number of fatal car crashes in 2022 (42,795), the U.S. average fatal crash rate is nearly 16 deaths per 100,000 vehicles."

That would mean that the 2,000,000 recalled Teslas, if average, would have around 320 fatalities per year, or ~80 since the December recall. NHTSA cites no fatalities at all, only 20 crashes. It appears they are only counting crashes where AutoPilot was active, so these number are not exactly comparable, but my point is that NHTSA appears to be insisting that the recall should have made FSD eliminate all crashes. They do not even compare the crash rates before and after the recall.

We have seen US airline fatalities reach zero per year for decades on end. This was through the NTSB process of investigating, determining and curing the root cause of each and every crash. NHTSA, in contrast, is making perfection the enemy of improvement.

In all fairness, pilots are highly trained and regulated, as are air traffic patterns.

For cars, any dimwit that can manage to turn the key can get in and risk every other car around.

 

[JB47394]

But if they change the 25 mph limit they have to change both signs instead on just one.

I assume the state set it up this way so that if they change something at the state level, it's lower cost to them.

 

[aronth5]

Was the sunrise or sunset looking into the camera? That is the only 1 time I have had the devil red hands come up when I was entering the highway going up the ramp and the sun looking directly into the camera.

No.

So no more than 15 minutes after I responded "no", I had another red hands come up when entering the highway. This time the sunset was bright which @enemji asked about. Whether that was just a coincidence I don't know but that is now 3 times I've gotten the red hands at that on ramp all about the same time and all when auto max was handing off the v11 highway stack. The only other red hands alert was switching from one highway to another just a quarter mile away from tonights alert. The highway maps in this area are pretty bad so who knows what is going on.

 

[dachshund]

I really hate the sudden, out-of-the-blue, red hands on wheel alert. They are just so jarring. You can be cruising along just fine and then suddenly the car is blaring at you to grab the wheel immediately. On my drive to work this morning I got 2 of them back to back that scared the crap out of me. The first one, I think was due to a dip in the road where construction removed a bit of the asphalt. FSD was fine and then suddenly freaked out when the car drove over the dip. And then a moment later, I got a second alert when I think the wheel spinned a bit on some wet gravel.

I get these while driving manually. I mean, I’m steering and it’s screaming. I can’t imagine why they’re happening, but it only started around v12.3.4. So a couple of weeks ago. In general there are way more freak outs from the robot with v12.

 

[PianoAl]

I assume the state set it up this way so that if they change something at the state level, it's lower cost to them.

Perhaps they have PTSD from when the national limit was changed to 55 mph then back (in the 70s).

 

[JB47394]

This is a new NHTSA document from May 6, and it's bonkers. If this is a repost, my apologies.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2024/INIM-RQ24009-12199.pdf

NHTSA is investigating the Autopilot recall (23V838) because people are still getting into accidents while using it. You will not believe the list of information that they're requiring Tesla to provide. It's to the point where it would take NHTSA years to review the very information that they're asking for. I can't imagine that this is considered a reasonable information request.

This is item 1 of 17 pieces of information they have to provide:

State, by model and model year, the number of subject vehicles Tesla has manufactured for
sale or lease in the United States. Separately, for each subject vehicle manufactured to date
by Tesla, state the following:
a. Vehicle identification number (VIN);
b. Model;
c. Model Year;
d. Subject component trade/trim name, part number and design version installed as original
equipment, including:
i. Software version;
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ii. Firmware version;
iii. Hardware version;
iv. Cabin Camera installed (yes/no);
e. Date of manufacture;
f. Date warranty coverage commenced;
g. Date subject recall was sent to the vehicle;
h. Date subject recall was installed on the vehicle;
i. The number of strikes the vehicle has received related to Autopilot;
j. The date(s) of the strikes;
k. The number of strikeouts the vehicle has received related to Autopilot;
l. The date(s) of the strikeouts;
m. The number of suspensions the vehicle has received related to Autopilot;
n. The date(s) of the suspensions;
o. Date and mileage of Cabin Camera Data Sharing enabled;
p. The state or territory in the United States where the vehicle was originally sold or leased
(or delivered for sale or lease);
q. Latest known vehicle mileage and commensurate date;
r. Subject component trade/trim name, part number and design version installed as an
aftersales customer-requested upgrade; including:
i. Software version;
ii. Firmware version;
iii. Hardware version;
iv. Cabin Camera installed (yes/no);
s. Whether the vehicle ever had Full-Self Driving Supervised/Beta including free trials;
i. Start date of Full-Self Driving enrollment Supervised/Beta;
ii. End date of Full-Self Driving Supervised/Beta enrollment;
t. Date and identities of the most recent software, firmware, and hardware updates,
including but not limited to all such updates related to the subject recall.