Getting seriously tempted by the i-Pace

[AnxietyRanger]

Well, I believe the target is 220 miles with a 90kWh pack, so one would assume aesthetics (well Jags idea anyway) are prioritized slightly more than aerodynamics.

I agree, Jaguar has probably prioritized aesthetics and also a traditional Jaguar look over some aero. In fact, to me the design looks like a very nice car, that is a big part of its appeal compared to the bulging bug glass cupola that is the Model 3.

If they can reach 220 miles of range, that would be well within the large-battery BEV requirements I have in mind that work for a lot of people that can charge at home or at work. I could certainly cover 95% of my annual driving with simply home/work charging on that.

 

[Shock-On-T]

If these came compatible with Tesla's supercharger network, which Musk has said he is prepared to allow others use, I'd be giving it a good long look when it comes time to upgrade my S. If not, I won't give it a look.

There's no way I can rely on public chargers for travel. Until the competitor has banks of maintained fast chargers compatible with Tesla's SC network, or can use Tesla's, every other EV maker is out for me -- which is too bad.

This is the elephant in the room. Tesla's charging network is everywhere, is integrated into car, is fast, requires no rfid or membership, is free (or will have automated billing) and is reliable.
That's quite an accessory for the Model 3.

 

[Lokolo]

This is the elephant in the room. Tesla's charging network is everywhere, is integrated into car, is fast, requires no rfid or membership, is free (or will have automated billing) and is reliable.
That's quite an accessory for the Model 3.

Obviously depends on location, frankly, it's not "everywhere", my nearest one is a 31 minute drive (19 miles) with the next being 35 minute drive and 22 miles, and this is in the densely populated UK. And remember that Model3 options for charging aren't out yet, so it might not (likely not) be free and will have to have some sort of membership to go with it.

If we compare me for example. Within ~20 miles to me:

Tesla there are 2 superchargers and 1 gallery/service centre.
Jaguar there are 6 sales centres, 7 servicing centres (5 are sales/service, 1 is sales only and 2 service only) and 5 body shops

This gives Jaguar a BIG advantage to build out a charging network, they have locations already and all they then need to do is install the infrastructure. These aren't in motorway areas, but still give a big advantage to servicing and possible locations.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Obviously depends on location, frankly, it's not "everywhere", my nearest one is a 31 minute drive (19 miles) with the next being 35 minute drive and 22 miles, and this is in the densely populated UK. And remember that Model3 options for charging aren't out yet, so it might not (likely not) be free and will have to have some sort of membership to go with it.

You don't need supercharging near where you live. The whole point is to enable long distance driving.

My nearest supercharger is 23 minutes away, and the next one after that is 39 minutes. Even so, Norway has virtually full supercharger coverage. I can travel everywhere in Norway without hassle, as long as I stay south of Tromsø (in the far north). The rest of Europe isn't any worse, I'll run into trouble in Spain, southern Italy, Croatia, Hungary, Poland and northern Sweden, but everywhere northwest of that is basically fully covered.

The current pricing for charging is also very acceptable. It's way cheaper than charging on CHAdeMO or CCS. And where CHAdeMO/CCS locations usually have one or two chargers, Tesla has usually 3-6 dual chargers (6-12 charging spots). That means that queuing is rare, and if a charger goes down, the impact is minimal.

I wouldn't buy a I-Pace (or any non-Tesla BEV) if I regularly needed to take long trips. Currently there isn't a single Tesla-equivalent CCS/CHAdeMO charger in Norway. Any competing system would literally be starting with nothing - so how many years before a competing system is at all usable?

 

[Yggdrasill]

Trust me, I have never ever bought a car for its Cd and neither has most other people. People do buy on looks though.

In addition, what matters is what they have achieved with that Cd. We shall see what the numbers eventually are.

If you have a good Cd, you have good range, especially at high speed. Range is one of the most important things people look at when buying a BEV.

 

[diamond.g]

I agree, Jaguar has probably prioritized aesthetics and also a traditional Jaguar look over some aero. In fact, to me the design looks like a very nice car, that is a big part of its appeal compared to the bulging bug glass cupola that is the Model 3.

If they can reach 220 miles of range, that would be well within the large-battery BEV requirements I have in mind that work for a lot of people that can charge at home or at work. I could certainly cover 95% of my annual driving with simply home/work charging on that.

I wonder if they are going to offer smaller battery packs. Doesn't seem likely that a 90kWh pack would allow them to price the vehicle less than the X75D. And smaller than 90 means you won't see the 220 mile range that is currently being advertised.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You don't need supercharging near where you live. The whole point is to enable long distance driving.

I would assume @Lokolo's point, just like mine, is - well - many of us don't need long-distance driving. Or when we do, Superchargers are not really cutting it either. We benefit from local charging more because that is where we take our BEV most often.

Your view of the Supercharger coverage is highly exaggerated as well. Even where Supercharger coverage is good in Europe (or in the U.S.), it dictates certain routes and certain schedules. Fine for a vacation type of roadtrip when looking at the map theoretically, but hardly for business travel.

Which means, many of us are not buying a BEV - not even a Tesla - with the assumption that we can handle all of our long-distance driving needs with it. I have driven a Tesla since 2014 and the stuff it shines in is the daily driving, where several times a week I can charge at home or at work. Each year there are a few trips I can not take in the Tesla and this number would not be much different in an I-Pace, with the possible exception of a vacation road trip (which I take maybe once every five years) that I could take at a leisurely pace.

Whenever I need to venture further, even within the Supercharger network, it always takes special planning that often ends up in me taking an ICE instead. No BEV shines in long-distance travel as things stand, not even a Tesla - there are too few and too slow Superchargers for that. However, where they do shine is daily usage near base(s) that offers charging whenever we are parked. There the convenience delta is significant, because the gas station is a thing of the past and there is no waiting to charge.

And this is where an I-Pace, assuming it has a large-enough battery/range, looks to do as well as a Tesla - while offering styling and interior that promises to be superior. Hence why it is interesting.

 

[Shock-On-T]

Obviously depends on location, frankly, it's not "everywhere", my nearest one is a 31 minute drive (19 miles) with the next being 35 minute drive and 22 miles, and this is in the densely populated UK. And remember that Model3 options for charging aren't out yet, so it might not (likely not) be free and will have to have some sort of membership to go with it.

If we compare me for example. Within ~20 miles to me:

Tesla there are 2 superchargers and 1 gallery/service centre.
Jaguar there are 6 sales centres, 7 servicing centres (5 are sales/service, 1 is sales only and 2 service only) and 5 body shops

This gives Jaguar a BIG advantage to build out a charging network, they have locations already and all they then need to do is install the infrastructure. These aren't in motorway areas, but still give a big advantage to servicing and possible locations.

Having two supercharger stations within 10% battery range of your house counts as "everywhere".
And best of luck convincing all the privately owned British Jaguar dealers to put 8 charging stalls in each of their famously spacious forecourts.
By 2018.
For a car that will make up 2% of their sales.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If you have a good Cd, you have good range, especially at high speed. Range is one of the most important things people look at when buying a BEV.

I'm not so sure. Range category or ballpark is important, of course. It matters if it is a under 50 miles or under 100 miles, because those mean you may not get through a day with the car or you must guarantee nightly charging or somesuch. But when it gets over 200 miles, it starts to matter far less in many average driving scenarios.

If I-Pace range is in the same ballpark as Model 3 or Bolt (215-240...), I could care less about Cd and I would bet I'm not alone on that. OTOH, if I-Pace Cd were to mean they can squeeze out 100-150 miles max of a 90 kWh battery, they you would have a point...

 

[182RG]

I confess. I stepped out of line, and cancelled my Model 3 reservation. A combination of anti-contenting and anti-selling the Model 3, coupled with EM's obsession with obfuscation via Twitter, ongoing QC issues, deliberate lack of service/parts information, and outright misinformation about timing and capabilities of features (AP2) have left a bad Tesla taste. I may look at a CPO Model S at some point, but we'll see what the next year or two holds. The FWDs makes the Model X a non-starter.

Frankly, I'm impressed with what Jaguar has done with their product offering. Style, features, content. The I-Pace is more of what I'm looking for, as a current 2 SUV household. A well appointed, AWD CUV EV in the $80K range would fit the bill nicely for me. One with a hatch, one I can put a roof-rack on.

I didn't want the Model 3 until 2020, so by then, the competition / autonomous / fast charging landscape will look very much different than the Tesla-centric world looks today. Much different. The world will catch up and pass Tesla.

Here's to having more choices.......

 

[Yggdrasill]

I would assume @Lokolo's point, just like mine, is - well - many of us don't need long-distance driving. Or when we do, Superchargers are not really cutting it either. We benefit from local charging more because that is where we take our BEV most often.

Your view of the Supercharger coverage is highly exaggerated as well. Even where Supercharger coverage is good in Europe (or in the U.S.), it dictates certain routes and certain schedules. Fine for a vacation type of roadtrip when looking at the map theoretically, but hardly for business travel.

I don't know about other people, but I won't be needing to plan my long distance driving. I can get into my Model X, drive in any direction, and as long as I stop at every supercharger I pass and charge at least to 75%, I'll be fine. Planning can reduce the needed number of stops, as I can skip some chargers, but planning isn't *needed*.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Having two supercharger stations within 10% battery range of your house counts as "everywhere".
And best of luck convincing all the privately owned British Jaguar dealers to put 8 charging stalls in each of their famously spacious forecourts.
By 2018.
For a car that will make up 2% of their sales.

Nah, dealerships won't be the answer to charging - beyond a short term remedy perhaps. The big deal with an I-Pace, just like with a Tesla, is home/work charging. That will cover most buyers.

The secondary step will be AC destination charging. The third, for those who need long-range travel, is third-party CCS (I-Pace) and Supercharging (Tesla).

In the last segement Tesla will enjoy benefits for the short-term, but then may who need long-range will still find ICE more convenient. And eventually CCS will get there.

Don't get me wrong. Supercharging is a benefit for Tesla. But a much, much bigger benefit for Tesla is that nobody else has a large-battery premium car on the market yet. That's where BEVs really enjoy a convenience benefit against ICEs, in the daily home/work charge.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I don't know about other people, but I won't be needing to plan my long distance driving. I can get into my Model X, drive in any direction, and as long as I stop at every supercharger I pass and charge at least to 75%, I'll be fine. Planning can reduce the needed number of stops, as I can skip some chargers, but planning isn't *needed*.

Norway is a sliver of a country with disproportionately good Supercharging coverage. It is easier to rely on corridors in a place like that.

Yet I'm not sure you get the full point. Even when it is a question of A to B and back from B to A, and there as a Supercharger smack in the middle of that, I find often it impossible to plan for the extra time needed when travelling on business within a business day (and not against, say a night in a hotel). It is just a major inconvenience to have to factor that need in.

 

[gavine]

I'm not so sure. Range category or ballpark is important, of course. It matters if it is a under 50 miles or under 100 miles, because those mean you may not get through a day with the car or you must guarantee nightly charging or somesuch. But when it gets over 200 miles, it starts to matter far less in many average driving scenarios.

If I-Pace range is in the same ballpark as Model 3 or Bolt (215-240...), I could care less about Cd and I would bet I'm not alone on that. OTOH, if I-Pace Cd were to mean they can squeeze out 100-150 miles max of a 90 kWh battery, they you would have a point...

I think the point is that you need a larger battery to get the same range with a high drag coefficient. Batteries are expensive. If they can get the same range with a 70kWh battery using a lower drag coefficient, then you have a better value. I agree, looks are very important, but so is value. There will be a cost premium on that 90kWh battery with the same range as a Model 3 so in my mind, that's a disadvantage overall.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I'm not so sure. Range category or ballpark is important, of course. It matters if it is a under 50 miles or under 100 miles, because those mean you may not get through a day with the car or you must guarantee nightly charging or somesuch. But when it gets over 200 miles, it starts to matter far less in many average driving scenarios.

If I-Pace range is in the same ballpark as Model 3 or Bolt (215-240...), I could care less about Cd and I would bet I'm not alone on that. OTOH, if I-Pace Cd were to mean they can squeeze out 100-150 miles max of a 90 kWh battery, they you would have a point...

220 miles with 90 kWh isn't great. The Model X 90D does 257 miles with ~88 kWh, and it's a significantly larger/heavier car.

Properly designed, an I-Pace should do close to 300 miles, with a 90 kWh battery, and at no additional cost. I do have a suspicion that the I-Pace will have better range than 220 miles, or a lower battery capacity for the stated 220 miles, but we'll just have to see.

(75 kWh for 220 miles makes a lot more sense, so it may be that the 90 kWh pack is optional.)

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I think the point is that you need a larger battery to get the same range with a high drag coefficient. Batteries are expensive. If they can get the same range with a 70kWh battery using a lower drag coefficient, then you have a better value. I agree, looks are very important, but so is value. There will be a cost premium on that 90kWh battery with the same range as a Model 3 so in my mind, that's a disadvantage overall.

I get the point, of course. But the difference of, say, my Model X Cd and i-Pace Cd is, I understand, 0.05. Is that really so significant that it would be a factor for me as a buyer to consider? Frankly, I doubt it. I'm guessing the price factor you mention will probably be more affected by other factors, such as volumes, third-party manufacturing arrangements and what kind of premium Jaguar is looking to get on this...

We shall see, of course.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

220 miles with 90 kWh isn't great. The Model X 90D does 257 miles with ~88 kWh, and it's a significantly larger/heavier car.

Properly designed, an I-Pace should do close to 300 miles, with a 90 kWh battery, and at no additional cost.

Yeah, and properly designed by Model X at its price point should have everything an Audi Q7 has, but it doesn't... What do the hypotheticals help in the real world? Cd is just a number. I'm not saying it isn't an important number in car design, I'm just saying as a customer, I'm not a car designer. I look at the available products and things that matter to me - and speculate on what matter to others like me - and I don't think the Cd number is something that will matter to people. Oh, this has 0.22, this has 0.29... That sounds IMO too geeky to matter.

At the end of the day, the large-battery BEVs are all compromises in some way and there is a very limited selection from which to choose. If I-Pace has lesser range and lesser acceleration than a Model 3, sure that matter somewhat, but at the same time if it has superior interior, a great hatch in the back and it looks smoking hot to me - and has sufficient range - I will definitely go with the I-Pace...

I do have a suspicion that the I-Pace will have better range than 220 miles, or a lower battery capacity for the stated 220 miles, but we'll just have to see.

Agreed.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I confess. I stepped out of line, and cancelled my Model 3 reservation. A combination of anti-contenting and anti-selling the Model 3, coupled with EM's obsession with obfuscation via Twitter, ongoing QC issues, deliberate lack of service/parts information, and outright misinformation about timing and capabilities of features (AP2) have left a bad Tesla taste. I may look at a CPO Model S at some point, but we'll see what the next year or two holds. The FWDs makes the Model X a non-starter.

Yeah, completely understand you. The FWDs are a major hassle, so they are definitely not for everyone.

And it takes major willpower to keep igoring Tesla's shenanigans you refer to. I keep saying to myself - as perhaps @Canuck would - all companies have their flaws and everyone does unethical things, but it is a major dampener for sure to see a company I used to be so enthusiastic about reach new lows with every passing quarter.

 

[Yggdrasill]

At the end of the day, the large-battery BEVs are all compromises in some way and there is a very limited selection from which to choose. If I-Pace has lesser range and lesser acceleration than a Model 3, sure that matter somewhat, but at the same time if it has superior interior, a great hatch in the back and it looks smoking hot to me - and has sufficient range - I will definitely go with the I-Pace...

Cross-shopping the Model 3 and the I-Pace just doesn't make sense to me. The I-Pace will cost close to twice as much, and one is a sedan while the other is a SUV. Cross-shopping the Model X and the I-Pace makes more sense.

 

[182RG]

And it takes major willpower to keep igoring Tesla's shenanigans you refer to.

^This^ The deliberate lack of and mis-information is incredibly off-putting and insulting to current and future customers, especially to the demographic who is purchasing an EV. Gosh, I can actually see the steering wheel and drivers console for the I-Pace. The reason details for the Model 3, allegedly months from production, are a mystery is why.....? I don't like to feel toyed with. Like I'm too stupid to digest information, and make an informed decision.

This behavior may have seemed trendy and exciting for early adopters, hanging on every drop of carefully managed information. It's frankly irritating at this point.