GM Chevy Volt

[Mookuh]

After checking this thread, I went to Wikipedia to read up a bit on the sceond generation Volt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt_(second_generation)
If even half of those things are true, it's going to be a massive leap forward, and a very attractive car for anyone who might not be able to use Superchargers for long-range trips, or can't pony up 80k+ for a Tesla.
I remain sceptical of the "7.000$ - 10.000$ cheaper than the last model", however if that holds true, this car is very important I feel, and possibly a direct competitor for Model 3. Yes, it is not a full BEV. No, it doesn't need to be. 50 miles range is workable, for everything else there's the gas engine.
Here's hoping that Opel won't be closed down before it comes around to Europe, and they actually start selling it here.

 

[Saghost]

After checking this thread, I went to Wikipedia to read up a bit on the sceond generation Volt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt_(second_generation)
If even half of those things are true, it's going to be a massive leap forward, and a very attractive car for anyone who might not be able to use Superchargers for long-range trips, or can't pony up 80k+ for a Tesla.
I remain sceptical of the "7.000$ - 10.000$ cheaper than the last model", however if that holds true, this car is very important I feel, and possibly a direct competitor for Model 3. Yes, it is not a full BEV. No, it doesn't need to be. 50 miles range is workable, for everything else there's the gas engine.
Here's hoping that Opel won't be closed down before it comes around to Europe, and they actually start selling it here.

I'm not sure how the Wikipedia article phrased it, but the actual GM quotes about the $7-10k have always been about manufacturing cost, not consumer price.

Lots of folks have posted different opinions about how much money GM is making or losing on each first generation Volt, many of them working from improbable assumptions. However, I think it is reasonably clear that GM has less profit built in to it than many other cars, and they've been clear about the need to fix that.

The new base was actually announced recently, some two thousand dollars cheaper than last year. We're still waiting to hear how options well be priced.
Walter

 

[mhpr262]

It will be just as interesting to see if the gen II Volt will be engineered and built as reliably and bullet-proof as the current model.

 

[Rifleman]

It will be just as interesting to see if the gen II Volt will be engineered and built as reliably and bullet-proof as the current model.

My first gen volt has spent about 2 months in the shop total, I would hardly consider it bullet-proof.

 

[GSP]

After checking this thread, I went to Wikipedia to read up a bit on the sceond generation Volt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt_(second_generation)
If even half of those things are true, it's going to be a massive leap forward, and a very attractive car for anyone who might not be able to use Superchargers for long-range trips, or can't pony up 80k+ for a Tesla.
I remain sceptical of the "7.000$ - 10.000$ cheaper than the last model", however if that holds true, this car is very important I feel, and possibly a direct competitor for Model 3. Yes, it is not a full BEV. No, it doesn't need to be. 50 miles range is workable, for everything else there's the gas engine.
Here's hoping that Opel won't be closed down before it comes around to Europe, and they actually start selling it here.

Unfortunately, GM has announced they will not sell the 2nd gen Volt in Europe. Ther will not be an Opel or Vauxhall version, nor a right hand drive version. They did say that Opel will get a next gen EV, which probably will be the "pure EV" Bolt.

It really is a shame, as the Volt is still the best PHEV available, with 50 EV miles at full performance, and no performance reduction when the range extender engine is needed.

GSP

 

[scottf200]

It will be just as interesting to see if the gen II Volt will be engineered and built as reliably and bullet-proof as the current model.

In contrast my first generation 2011 vin 01234 has had virtually no problems.

 

[Mookuh]

Unfortunately, GM has announced they will not sell the 2nd gen Volt in Europe. Ther will not be an Opel or Vauxhall version, nor a right hand drive version.

Well, that sucks. Though I'm guessing the Volt didn't sell well here at all, and now that the BMW i3 is out and about, it's unlikely to pick up steam any time soon.
Myself, as a proud German, I'd rather drive a Chevy than a Bavarian car :biggrin:

Thanks for the heads up.

I'm not sure how the Wikipedia article phrased it, but the actual GM quotes about the $7-10k have always been about manufacturing cost, not consumer price.

Wikipedia cites this source:

GM CEO: Chevrolet Volt Price To Drop By $7,000 to $10,000 For Next Gen | Inside EVs

The article assumes a 7k-10k reduction in consumer price, however the careful reader will see the CEOs statement as refering to production cost, because he mentions that "it will then be profitable." If the car is not profitable currently (which is assumed in the article) expecting a 7k-10k price drop in consumer prices is insane. Also, the article is 2 years old by now.

Again, thanks for the discussion/clarification.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

It got a new commercial:

 

[ggies07]

It got a new commercial:

But see that's thing, that's my WHOLE thing about the Volt and GM - It is NOT the car of tomorrow land, yet they continually promote it as such. The car of tomorrow has not one part of a gas engine in it. The car of tomorrow will not have things of the past. The car of tomorrow doesn't go just 50 miles on a charge and then switch to gas! ​The car of tomorrow is here, it's an all electric vehicle, which is either a Nissan LEAF or Tesla Model S.

This is what I was talking about several posts ago. How much time/energy/money did they spend on making this commercial? What.a.waste.

oh, and they don't even show you the engine that's in the car, that focus on the battery and then build out the car really fast. Please.

This is how people slow progress down, making incremental improvements and not getting anywhere. They better make the Bolt one hell of a car.

 

[Saghost]

But see that's thing, that's my WHOLE thing about the Volt and GM - It is NOT the car of tomorrow land, yet they continually promote it as such. The car of tomorrow has not one part of a gas engine in it. The car of tomorrow will not have things of the past. The car of tomorrow doesn't go just 50 miles on a charge and then switch to gas! ​The car of tomorrow is here, it's an all electric vehicle, which is either a Nissan LEAF or Tesla Model S.

This is what I was talking about several posts ago. How much time/energy/money did they spend on making this commercial? What.a.waste.

oh, and they don't even show you the engine that's in the car, that focus on the battery and then build out the car really fast. Please.

This is how people slow progress down, making incremental improvements and not getting anywhere. They better make the Bolt one hell of a car.

I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp...

There are a lot of people for whom the existing BEVs don't work - they can't afford a Model S, and drive further than a Leaf will go without patience and extensive preplanning from time to time. For those people, the Volt can reduce their gasoline use and emissions by 80-90%.

At the same time, it gives a way for people who aren't sure to take a small step into the EV world while not requiring the leap of faith that a pure battery car is (especially any BEV below the Tesla.) Many (most?) Volt drivers soon aspire to go more electric when it becomes practical for them...

Why is either of these a bad thing?

 

[ggies07]

I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp...

There are a lot of people for whom the existing BEVs don't work - they can't afford a Model S, and drive further than a Leaf will go without patience and extensive preplanning from time to time. For those people, the Volt can reduce their gasoline use and emissions by 80-90%.

At the same time, it gives a way for people who aren't sure to take a small step into the EV world while not requiring the leap of faith that a pure battery car is (especially any BEV below the Tesla.) Many (most?) Volt drivers soon aspire to go more electric when it becomes practical for them...

Why is either of these a bad thing?

It's not hard, i dont have a problem with that. I have a problem with GM marketing the car like its what people should be looking at for the future, it gives a sense a false ground. Will GM really follow through with making a 200 mile EV that is not a compliance car? How long will they try and string people along with this small battery concept?....

 

[Saghost]

It's not hard, i dont have a problem with that. I have a problem with GM marketing the car like its what people should be looking at for the future, it gives a sense a false ground. Will GM really follow through with making a 200 mile EV that is not a compliance car? How long will they try and string people along with this small battery concept?....

Keep in mind, GM is pitching to the mass market audience - and all the plug in cars to date, even including pathetic efforts like the Plug in Prius, make up less than one percent of the fleet. I'm pretty sure John Q Public has never seriously considered buying an electric car - and if he did, he likely dismissed it over range anxiety. To those people, I think pitching it as the future is valid - and for the next 10-15 years cars like that will be important in a lot of places, even after the Model 3 starts to revolutionize the market in places where charging/supercharging is more practical.

(I can't tell you what GM is going to do, but it sounds like they're serious about the Bolt - though they can't have the battery production to take it mass market, and I haven't seen any evidence of a supporting DCFC network.)

 

[eloder]

I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp...

There are a lot of people for whom the existing BEVs don't work - they can't afford a Model S, and drive further than a Leaf will go without patience and extensive preplanning from time to time. For those people, the Volt can reduce their gasoline use and emissions by 80-90%.

At the same time, it gives a way for people who aren't sure to take a small step into the EV world while not requiring the leap of faith that a pure battery car is (especially any BEV below the Tesla.) Many (most?) Volt drivers soon aspire to go more electric when it becomes practical for them...

Why is either of these a bad thing?

In my personal opinion, it's not a great idea in the same reason that hydrogen fuel cells are not a great idea. It's detracting from tech that's real and available right now, and is a much better solution than a fossil fuel powered range extender.

If the Volt became an extremely popular car (and it ideally SHOULD be far more popular than most any gas/hybrid car out there at a similar pricerange), causing other manufacturers to abandon their BEV development in favor of Volt-like cars, what do you think would happen to lvl3 charging networks? What do you think would happen to efforts to make charging viable for city dwellers? Supporting the Volt is still relying on big oil, supporting the existing high-maintenance anti-EV dealership establishment, and is drawing away from BEV progression. If it ever becomes a market force to be reckoned with then it will very greatly delay the BEV revolution. As much as a used Volt would make more sense to me compared to any BEV on the market right now, no thanks--I would rather support a 70 mile range BEV than a 50 mile range Volt.

 

[Breezy]

In my personal opinion, it's not a great idea in the same reason that hydrogen fuel cells are not a great idea. It's detracting from tech that's real and available right now, and is a much better solution than a fossil fuel powered range extender.

If the Volt became an extremely popular car (and it ideally SHOULD be far more popular than most any gas/hybrid car out there at a similar pricerange), causing other manufacturers to abandon their BEV development in favor of Volt-like cars, what do you think would happen to lvl3 charging networks? What do you think would happen to efforts to make charging viable for city dwellers? Supporting the Volt is still relying on big oil, supporting the existing high-maintenance anti-EV dealership establishment, and is drawing away from BEV progression. If it ever becomes a market force to be reckoned with then it will very greatly delay the BEV revolution. As much as a used Volt would make more sense to me compared to any BEV on the market right now, no thanks--I would rather support a 70 mile range BEV than a 50 mile range Volt.

Thanks for this comment. I haven't seen this point of view explained so clearly before.

If the Volt and other Volt-like vehicles became extremely popular, that would lead to major emissions reductions. It would mean more plug-ins on the road. This I can see only as a good thing.

But it's a theoretical question because we're a long way from the masses choosing between EREV and BEV. They're still predominately choosing ICE over either.

 

[JohnQ]

In my personal opinion, it's not a great idea in the same reason that hydrogen fuel cells are not a great idea. It's detracting from tech that's real and available right now, and is a much better solution than a fossil fuel powered range extender.

If the Volt became an extremely popular car (and it ideally SHOULD be far more popular than most any gas/hybrid car out there at a similar pricerange), causing other manufacturers to abandon their BEV development in favor of Volt-like cars, what do you think would happen to lvl3 charging networks? What do you think would happen to efforts to make charging viable for city dwellers? Supporting the Volt is still relying on big oil, supporting the existing high-maintenance anti-EV dealership establishment, and is drawing away from BEV progression. If it ever becomes a market force to be reckoned with then it will very greatly delay the BEV revolution. As much as a used Volt would make more sense to me compared to any BEV on the market right now, no thanks--I would rather support a 70 mile range BEV than a 50 mile range Volt.

If Tesla didn't exist, then the vast majority of people who have never driven electric would prefer a 50 mile range Volt to a 70 mile range BEV. The latter is perceived as simply too inconvenient for most people (rightly or wrongly). With the Volt, it's possible that people would realize that the majority of their driving can be covered by that 70 mile BEV and they'd make the shift.

Since Tesla does exist, people can get a taste of BEV driving with the Volt then shift to a pure BEV that meets their need (whether 70 mile or 240 mile).

You make the assumption that people will stop at the Volt. I make the assumption that people will get a taste and migrate to a BEV that meets their need provided they can afford to do so.

 

[bhzmark]

The volt is a great transition vehicle for the masses. They would otherwise dismiss a pure bev . when they get a volt and realize that they rarely need the ice and a 200 mile range plus supercharger will be sufficient they will be a model 3 buyer.

 

[Drucifer]

The Volt is a real triumph of engineering. It is far and away the best integrated "primarily electric" hybrid out there (really only one of 3 with the BMW i3 Rex and the Fisker Karma being the others ~ all other hybrids are "primarily ICE" IMHO). The Volt allows the owner to drive 90% on electric, and punishes the driver with a bit of noise and vibration if they run on gas - the Volt's performance is better and much more satisfying to the driver in EV mode. When it does use gas, it can easily get 40 mpg on the highway.

Imagine if half the sedans became Volts overnight. We could easily see a reduction of 20% or more of oil consumption in the USA. Don't let BEV "ideological perfection" be the enemy of a really good and practical improvement at as mass market price.

 

[mknox]

Don't let BEV "ideological perfection" be the enemy of a really good and practical improvement at as mass market price.

+1 Couldn't agree more.

 

[Grendal]

Let's take a moment to look at this from a purely numbers perspective:

Pure BEV's that are mass manufactured:
Leaf - 80 mile charge/range - $30K
BMW i3 - 80 mile range - $41K
Tesla Model S - 240 mile range - $75K
Tesla Model S - 265 (85 kWh) - $80K

EREV's that are mass manufactured:
Volt - 40 mile electric range - $35K as long as you like using gas engine range extender.
BMW i3 - 80 mile electric range - $44K an extra 100 miles with no long distance really possible.

So if you want to drive 200 miles regularly or any long distance trip then you are stuck with the choice of a Tesla at minimum of $75K or getting a Volt for less than half the price. When did this become a bad thing? At the very least you are teaching a consumer the advantages of driving electric. These choices won't go away until the Model 3 hits the road. How many of those Volt owners are going to jump on a Model 3 when it comes out? 90%? Possibly more?

Don't let BEV "ideological perfection" be the enemy of a really good and practical improvement at as mass market price.

 

[dhrivnak]

We just purchased a Volt. Unfortunately there are no SuperChargers to get from our house to my family and my wife's family's hometowns. The last two weekends we needed to take 400+ mile trips and neither route has SuperChargers. But the Volt did just fine. When in town we get to drive in fully electric mode. So we can do better than half of our driving emission free. The other half at 40 mpg is not too bad.