GMC Hummer Debut 2020-10-20

[jsmay311]

Not sure of your point. You've simply shown that 350kW going into a 200+kWh pack is not impressive. Simply put 800V charging does not provide faster charge speeds than Tesla already has.

The point (which I thought was already thoroughly explained in the previous post) is that an EV using a J1772 DC charger is limited to max 400A charging current and therefore the battery pack voltage becomes the limiting factor for charging speed when you want to exceed ~160kW. So your earlier statement that “battery pack voltage [...] will have no effect on charging speed” is not correct.

And I don’t understand how you can argue that “800V charging does not provide faster charge speeds than Tesla already has” when it plainly does. 350kW > 250kW.

Regardless, comparisons to Tesla’s charging speed really isn’t germane when talking specifically about EVs with J1772 charge ports and how the battery pack voltage does or does not affect the max charge rate on those vehicles.

 

[MXLRplus]

Did anyone put in the preorder? If so which version? I can't get myself to for it at those prices as much as like what I've seen from the video. I know it's a promotional video and many things still need to be discovered.

Tri-motor cybertruck I pre-ordered was 69,000 and I added FSD for 7k at the time. I wonder if they will honor that or charge the 8k it costs now.

They are already sold out. They all went to dealers and their friends. Stupid dealers are stupid.

 

[P3dStealth]

It's going to be like the corvette C8. Huge dealer markups if you want one. Have to wait two years on a waiting list. Reservations with a dealer network aren't really reservations.

On the plus side I am actually excited to see GM is putting out some cool cars now. What comes after this thing? I want to see a midsize pickup ev and a camaro ev. What I don't want to see is 10 crossover SUVs that all look the same....

 

[JRP3]

And I don’t understand how you can argue that “800V charging does not provide faster charge speeds than Tesla already has” when it plainly does. 350kW > 250kW.

350kW for a 200+kWh pack is not faster than 250kW for an 80kWh pack, it's slower. 1.75 C rate vs 3.12 C rate

 

[strider]

350kW for a 200+kWh pack is not faster than 250kW for an 80kWh pack, it's slower. 1.75 C rate vs 3.12 C rate

I don't understand the comparison. Assuming the same Wh/mi for the vehicle, the mph at which you add range will be faster at 350kW than 250kW.

All that being said, no one talks about what effect faster and faster charging will have on the grid. When I read about Atlis' 1.5MW charger, I though that that's an insane amount of power that would need to be kept ready at all times. The demand charges will be off the charts.

 

[JRP3]

Assuming the same Wh/mi for the vehicle, the mph at which you add range will be faster at 350kW than 250kW.

Because it's a larger pack but it's still charging at a lower C rate. Yes the higher voltage is a way to overcome the limitations of the J1772 DC charging standard in this case which I did not take into account.

 

[Zer0t]

They are already sold out. They all went to dealers and their friends. Stupid dealers are stupid.

I guess they think they'll be able to gouge when there are non available for the general consumer.

 

[cusetownusa]

Idk why everyone is fussing about charge times? The CT is going to have a >200kWh battery too. Bigger packs takes longer to charge. No shortcuts there.

I think GM was being conservative w/ the range numbers and are using today's cell tech. The CT's range number is dependent on Tesla's new cell which is still in the lab stage. I'm also reminded that Car and Driver did a simultaneous range test of a Perf model S and Taycan Turbo S and they were within 20 miles of each other in range despite a massive EPA range difference.

Overall, I think it was a good first volley into the coming EV truck wars. My disappointment was not having plugs in the bed. One of my truck's main jobs will be hauling my Alta dirtbike and I do not want to have to haul the generator ay more. They already have an AC-DC converter in the onboard charger, it can't be that hard to run it backwards.

What makes you think the CT will have a >200kWh battery? Was this information provided anywhere?

Also, I thought Tesla was beyond the lab stage with their new battery tech and had an actual production line going at Fremont?

 

[scaesare]

You will lose that bet. GM has decades of history of meeting target dates. Tesla? Not so much.

I wouldn't be so sure.

The E-Hummer doesn't even exist yet. Not even in prototype form.

Yet they expect to release next year?

 

[uujjj2]

Idk why everyone is fussing about charge times? The CT is going to have a >200kWh battery too. Bigger packs takes longer to charge. No shortcuts there.

The largest Cybertruck battery will probably be around 200kWh too, maybe a little smaller. But I think the Cybertruck will be under 400Wh/mi. I would bet a v3 supercharger will put about as many miles per hour into the Cybertruck as a 350kW CCS puts into a Hummer.

570Wh/mi from the pack, which translates to 600Wh/mi from the wall (EPA rating) is awfully thirsty, even for a Hummer. I agree GM is sandbagging their claimed range, and I wouldn't be surprised if the final rating is in the high 300s, like 380mi or so.

Here's a thought: one good thing about bad aerodynamics is you don't lose as much range when towing. Cars like the Model X and Model Y, with really good aero, are known to crater their range when towing. That's because an aerodynamic car doesn't push much air out of the way of that very un-aerodynamic boat behind it. If the new Hummer has the aerodynamics we expect of Hummers, it'll be pushing a whole lot of air out of the boat's way. A Cybertruck with the bed cover closed will get 30-40% more range than a Hummer with the same battery, but a Cybertruck towing a big boat will only get slightly more range.

 

[strider]

What makes you think the CT will have a >200kWh battery? Was this information provided anywhere?

Also, I thought Tesla was beyond the lab stage with their new battery tech and had an actual production line going at Fremont?

Tesla hasn't said, but this article is estimating 250kWh: Detailed Modeling: Tesla Cybertruck 500-Mile Tri-Motor Battery & HP

As for the cell, at Battery Day, just a few weeks ago, they showed and said that the new cell had been proving in the lab but are still working on how to scale it up. So they are building some, probably enough for the upcoming Plaid MS. But even then, I think the fact that they pushed the Plaid MS so far into the future was to give them time to develop the new cell production. Otherwise, why wait so long? The design is done, it's been lapping at various racetracks for a while now. I think they need that new cell.

I wouldn't be so sure.

The E-Hummer doesn't even exist yet. Not even in prototype form.

Yet they expect to release next year?

Well, we are all speculating in this thread. We'll just have to revisit this thread in a year. But GM has plenty of experience putting vehicles into production. And they are not new to electrification. They have a lot of experience with all of their PHEVs and EVs. As we have seen, they are just scaling up their existing EV and truck tech (4 wheel steering, suspension, etc.), so this shouldn't be that much of a lift for them.

In contrast, Tesla is building a whole new factory, working with entirely new materials, using brand new cells, in their largest ever battery pack, in a new segment for them, I could go on and on. I am confident that Tesla will tackle and overcome the problems, but it will not be on time....

 

[strider]

Because it's a larger pack but it's still charging at a lower C rate. Yes the higher voltage is a way to overcome the limitations of the J1772 DC charging standard in this case which I did not take into account.

Ah, I see. But isn't that a good thing? Aren't lower C rates better for cell longevity?

 

[Gasaraki]

Something nobody is bringing up...

The battery tech is very interesting. They can change out individual battery modules if one fails. You don't have to scrap the whole battery pack. Also the modules are wireless and possibly upgradeable.

Promises, promises.

 

[scaesare]

Well, we are all speculating in this thread.

Well, you are the one making concrete assertions, not anybody else I can see:

You will lose that bet.

So good to see you are tempering your comments.

We'll just have to revisit this thread in a year. But GM has plenty of experience putting vehicles into production. And they are not new to electrification. They have a lot of experience with all of their PHEVs and EVs. As we have seen, they are just scaling up their existing EV and truck tech (4 wheel steering, suspension, etc.), so this shouldn't be that much of a lift for them.

You use the blanket term "electfication", but although there are some common elements, there's also some pretty significant differences between Hybrid electrics and full BEV's. And Chevy clearly didn't parlay their experience with the EV-1 well.

What's more the experience with the Bolt design is more LG's than GM's. So while GM understands production of an EV with the Bolt, in 2015 at ~14 months away from production they already had 50 cars desgined, buiilt, and in the process of testing and validation.

In this case a working e-Hummer does not exist. So if GM, and not LG, are truly designing this, then it is actually an incredibly heavy lift for them.

In contrast, Tesla is building a whole new factory, working with entirely new materials, using brand new cells, in their largest ever battery pack, in a new segment for them, I could go on and on. I am confident that Tesla will tackle and overcome the problems, but it will not be on time....

I'd say that Tesla has more directly-relatable experience on several of those fronts, with working versions of each already built, than GM has with completing the Hummer design/build, which needs to be done before production, obviously.

 

[jsmay311]

350kW for a 200+kWh pack is not faster than 250kW for an 80kWh pack, it's slower. 1.75 C rate vs 3.12 C rate

I guess we were talking about different things when discussing "charging speed", which is admittedly an imprecise term.

I usually interpret "charging speed" to mean "charging power" (in kW). But it can also mean the rate at which battery range is added (in mph or kph).

Discussions of C-rates are rarely referenced when talking vehicle "charging speeds" since it's not as relevant to everyday driving/charging utility.
For example, an i-MiEV with a 16 kWh battery and 62 mile range could in theory be retrofitted with a high C-rate battery and a DC charger to allow for a 100% charge in 20 minutes and an impressive 3C average charge rate. But even then it would only be charging at 48kW or 186mph, which is what really matters, and isn't impressive at all.
In contrast, since the Hummer EV will have a HUGE battery, it's C-rate won't be as high as other fast-charging EVs, but C-rate doesn't matter as much as kW or mph to the driver. (And its kW might be much more impressive than its mph since its driving efficiency will likely be awful, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.)

 

[JRP3]

Ah, I see. But isn't that a good thing? Aren't lower C rates better for cell longevity?

Yes but C rates are also related to cell chemistry and construction characteristics, so a higher C rate for one chemistry may not have the same impact as the same C rate on another chemistry. I look at cell level C rates as being indicative of actual advances in cell technology. Just building a bigger pack and charging it at a lower C rate does not show any cell technology improvement.

 

[JRP3]

I guess we were talking about different things when discussing "charging speed", which is admittedly an imprecise term.

As I mentioned in my post above this one I'm mostly interested in cell level improvements for the reasons outlined.

 

[wws]

... You use the blanket term "electfication", but although there are some common elements, there's also some pretty significant differences between Hybrid electrics and full BEV's. And Chevy clearly didn't parlay their experience with the EV-1 well.

Some of the same engineers who worked on EV-1 worked on the Volt. Likewise, Volt->Bolt EV.

What's more the experience with the Bolt design is more LG's than GM's. So while GM understands production of an EV with the Bolt, in 2015 at ~14 months away from production they already had 50 cars desgined, buiilt, and in the process of testing and validation.

Yes, GM was under a huge time constraint to get the Bolt EV out before the Model 3. The first Bolt EVs were actually delivered to customers at the Fremont CA Chevy dealer. Across the freeway and over about a mile from the Tesla mothership.

In this case a working e-Hummer does not exist. So if GM, and not LG, are truly designing this, then it is actually an incredibly heavy lift for them.

I'd say that Tesla has more directly-relatable experience on several of those fronts, with working versions of each already built, than GM has with completing the Hummer design/build, which needs to be done before production, obviously.

I have no doubt GM can produce it. But the real issue is that it it seems to be a halo vehicle. Dealers will stick ADP stickers on them, etc. So they probably won't sell very many of them. Just a placeholder until they can get a Silverado-like truck into production.

 

[firsttruck]

Tesla hasn't said, but this article is estimating 250kWh: Detailed Modeling: Tesla Cybertruck 500-Mile Tri-Motor Battery & HP

Well, we are all speculating in this thread. We'll just have to revisit this thread in a year. But GM has plenty of experience putting vehicles into production. And they are not new to electrification. They have a lot of experience with all of their PHEVs and EVs. As we have seen, they are just scaling up their existing EV and truck tech (4 wheel steering, suspension, etc.), so this shouldn't be that much of a lift for them.

In contrast, Tesla is building a whole new factory, working with entirely new materials, using brand new cells, in their largest ever battery pack, in a new segment for them, I could go on and on. I am confident that Tesla will tackle and overcome the problems, but it will not be on time....

Yes, GM has experience alright. A fair amount of bad quality experiences (some very serious like fires & brakes) also delays. That is why so many people fled GM, Ford for Toyota, Honda, Nissan.

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[uujjj2]

Some of the same engineers who worked on EV-1 worked on the Volt. Likewise, Volt->Bolt EV.

Actually, the EV-1 was developed in California not in Michigan. GM outsourced their EV program to Aerovironment in SoCal rather than develop it in-house. Many of the Sunraycer/Impact/EV-1 engineers went on to form AC Propulsion, which created the Tzero electric sports car, which in turn inspired the Tesla Roadster.

Tesla's cars, not the LG Bolt, are the direct linear descendent of the GM EV-1!