So, I started reporting “bug” by voice command to Tesla about some strange designed junctions near me bc the T3 responds inappropriately. I am getting less of them now. May be you could try to report it shortly after it occurs. Thinking if you report it enough times, they may adjust the programming.
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Has anyone heard of a Tesla being rear ended because of phantom braking?
- Thread starter Kablooie
- Start date
There is indeed some evidence, though only indirect, that the car modulates the degree of braking based on the nearness of any following vehicle (which would after all be sensible). Also, the term "phantom braking" has no precise definition .. to some it means a very sudden hard stop (or near stop), while to other it means any slow-down by the car (even small) that appears to have no cause. As a result no-one really knows the actual incidence of "hard" PB events and thus the severity of the problem. Almost certainly there is some of the usual "internet magnification" going on as well, which makes it even harder to make any unbiased inferences. However, as you note, if PB is truly as bad as some claim, then where are all the accidents? Given the hunger in the press for anything sensational related to Tesla, you can be sure they would be covered.
There is also the issue of erroneous reporting. If we define a PB event as the car braking with no external cause, how certain can we be sure that any given braking event IS phantom? It's quite possible (perhaps even likely) that the car saw a real threat that the driver missed, which causes a correct response by the car to be categorized by the driver as PB, even though it wasn't.
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
Yeah, the car definitely has a greater sense to go slow if ANYTHING is outta whack than I do. The car's driving like a chauffeur, while I drive by the "If I have to I'll slam on the brakes so I don't hit that guy when I get closer". MOST of the time I get away with it and sometimes my wife yells at me for driving crazy. Probably NOT how they'll teach the car to drive, ever, so we'll probably always have times the car slows and we think "I would never show in this situation"
I just completed a 4000 mile road trip in my 2023 Model 3. On the way home, Tucson, AZ to Denver, CO, we experienced phantom braking about 15 times. The only driving assistance we used was "cruise control". On our previous 2018 Model 3, the speed control was not adaptive, but the 2023 model is only with TACC. Most of the phantom braking was a short braking (loss of 3 - 7 MPH) and then a return to the set speed. About 3 times it was a very hard braking and I took over with the throttle to regain speed. In those 3 times, speed control would not take over, I had to cancel and reset cruise control. The circumstances of when the phantom braking occurred varied. There never was there a car in front, shadows on the desert road, or anything that came close to being a hazard. The last phantom braking was so hard that the seat belts were the only thing keeping us in our seats. It was the last because I did not feel safe turning cruise control back on. I wish that Tesla would let us choose between Adaptive and Non-Adaptive Cruise Control, like other cars I had did.
Tesla insurance ding me for head braking on autopilot!! It was happy following another car but that car suddenly changed lanes, so my T3 accelerated. The car that just changed lanes was very close to the car ahead. And my T3 freaked out, flashing a crash alert in the same way my grandma would have! @_@
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
For me 2022.45.12 (FSD 11.3.3) has been noticeably better for random slowdown/braking events when in FSDb mode.
There are still the ones I know will happen because it misinterprets traffic signals etc, but for general "why did it do that" is does seem much better.
Especially now that this release has started popping up little explanation banners like "stopping for traffic control" etc.
I had one where it slowed down, I glanced at the screen and it spotted someone working on the grass median, the avatar on the display was bright red. No clue why it thought someone facing the other way was about to jump into the road, but at least I knew why it was slowing down.
Difficult to compare to other reports in here when the software release isn't noted.
There are still the ones I know will happen because it misinterprets traffic signals etc, but for general "why did it do that" is does seem much better.
Especially now that this release has started popping up little explanation banners like "stopping for traffic control" etc.
I had one where it slowed down, I glanced at the screen and it spotted someone working on the grass median, the avatar on the display was bright red. No clue why it thought someone facing the other way was about to jump into the road, but at least I knew why it was slowing down.
Difficult to compare to other reports in here when the software release isn't noted.
Yes. I get those same problems. Added, when a car ahead has pulled into a driveway or side road, the T3 slows down like it is supposed to but just takes forever to reaccelerate. I get honks, but whatever. These are not phantom brake issues, just overly conservative programming. It also gets totally confused on complex lights: there are a few with bike lane lights that prevent you from turning right because the bike lane is still on green, but the T3 is urging me to go. I have reported it as a bug each time. So far, it has not made a difference.
Did you know that you can get ticketed for going the speed limit? Road conditions that make it unacceptable for going the speed limit will get you a ticket! Sounds crazy, but it's true. For example, excess rain, ice, and obstructions like stopped cars on the freeway. Yes, you can be ticketed for running into a stationary object on a road.
$15,000 for level 3 autonomy always sounded dubious to me. However, the statistics show that it is an effective collision avoidance system. Ask the other 130+ or so yearly crashing into emergency vehicle accidents every year created by humans who are not Tesla drivers. How many did Tesla have..?
Tam
Well-Known Member
Adv
I wouldn't want to use an ATM that only short changes me sometimes and not all the time.
The US argued that since Boeing 737 Max only crashed twice, it should not be grounded. It's only after all others in the world, including Canada, said it's not acceptable then the US was the last one agreed to ground it.
The machine has to be consistent and reliable: 65 means 65.
Machine makes fewer mistakes than human can doesn't mean it's acceptable.
I wouldn't want to use an ATM that only short changes me sometimes and not all the time.
The US argued that since Boeing 737 Max only crashed twice, it should not be grounded. It's only after all others in the world, including Canada, said it's not acceptable then the US was the last one agreed to ground it.
The machine has to be consistent and reliable: 65 means 65.
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
Weak arguments. Comparing Apples (broken products outright killing humans and keeping humans from saving themselves) with Oranges (not perfect products but still safer on average than humans). Makes me wonder about your motivations
B737Max certification is a fraud, and so far, so is level 3 automation for road cars, be it Mercedes or Tesla. I think I made myself very clear on that in my reply which you appear to have not read when I said, level 3 automation for $15,000 is a dubious claim. The difference is that even skilled pilots who were prepped couldn't save the B737Max planes in the simulator. How can you even compare it to the phantom braking???
I would agree with you that optical illusion can trick Tesla Vision. I have gotten many Sentry alerts where is is clearly a well defined shadow on a wall that has crossed in front of the camera view. It does surprise me that any engineer-minded person would think that vision is all that is needed for obstacle detection. I just hope that somehow, a ladar can be retrofitted on my hardware 3 T3.
That said, I hate non-adaptive cruise control on the Honda. The Prius has a reasonably good but dumb adaptive control that will slow down but happily crash you if the car ahead slows down significantly. For me there is no reason to not use Autopilot. You can easily over ride it by stepping on the accelerator and and double tap the right steering wheel stalk to reset the speed. If you don't like AP steering for you, you can just tap the right steering stalk once to engage TCC mode. Don't forget to make a voice "bug report" right after you encounter those events - rumor is Tesla will look into it and maybe adjust the programing.
I got my Model 3 RWD two weeks ago and was showing it off to a friend. He was driving, turned on autopilot, and then on a wide open highway on a sunny day the car decided to hard brake from 70 mph to 45 mph. While it did not put us in danger because there was no one else on the highway, it startled my friend and was embarrassing. It's hard to sell people on FSD when cruise control malfunctions.
Were you near an exit on the freeway? If there is a GPS or mapping issue the car may think it's just off the freeway and on an exit street, which can cause the speed limit to change from 75 to the street's limit of 45.
Happens near me due to heavy construction and lane shifting. The lanes shift right so the car thinks it's off the freeway and on a parallel street next to the freeway.
We were not near an exit but we were cresting a hill driving into the direction of the sun. I wonder if the angle of the sun confused the camera. Maybe the algorithm interpreted the sun as an oncoming headlight or an obstruction... I don't know.
Phantom braking yesterday on Interstate in sunlight, no overpass, nearest car was 1/4 mile ahead, but there was a rectangular pavement patch on the road that was slightly different color. Went from 75 to 55 in a flash. My wife screamed. No more AutoPilot for the remaining 100 miles of the trip - she didn't want me "playing with my car" while she was a passenger.
In my mind, it is substantially worse since we lost radar. Even TACC alone is worse. On the trip down several days ago, I couldn't even use TACC due to bad weather - got a "Traffic Aware Cruise Control Unavailable" message. Can you imagine a car in 2023 that can't use cruise-control on the highway when it's raining? While Cadillac and Mercedes are putting the final touches on their highway L3 systems, Tesla is going backwards on L2!
In my mind, it is substantially worse since we lost radar. Even TACC alone is worse. On the trip down several days ago, I couldn't even use TACC due to bad weather - got a "Traffic Aware Cruise Control Unavailable" message. Can you imagine a car in 2023 that can't use cruise-control on the highway when it's raining? While Cadillac and Mercedes are putting the final touches on their highway L3 systems, Tesla is going backwards on L2!
In the five years I've been driving using EAP/FSD I don't think PB events are more prevalent than before regardless of radar/Vision.
I remember so many ridiculous braking events for bridges and shadows on the highway was a standard AP drive long before Vision was around.
Biggest change with Vision isn't PB events (because I don't think they are worse than before) but rather that the cross traffic braking events are significantly better, still there, but now I'm not stopping for cars that are 100 yards down the side road.
Remember when comparing other systems, Merc is <30mph for L3 and GM is only handsfree not L3. Also remember that most other TACC type systems are also being scrutinized for PB events, this isn't just Tesla, it's just that Tesla is able to report on them. Most other manufacturers are unable to report on system effectiveness.
I think that its mighty convenient that GM and others can't report on their systems effectiveness or disengagements, some might think it was a deliberate ploy.
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