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Has Basic Autopilot improved (and phantom braking decreased) since radar was removed? (About to buy!)

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Recently drove 1200 mile on a trip with a newer M3. It seems improved as compared to a couple of years ago on my M3 with radar removed. I don’t know if it’s all sw or sw + newer car.

It had a few instances of mild letting up on the peddle. Only one more abrupt slow down. But it was not as bad. I think it wasn’t abrupt as before and it was certainly quicker to stop the slowing down and getting back to normal. The whole event felt like it was maybe 1 second long. It was not a “wtf” moment.

Used it mostly in dark/dusk and in rain. It did great in the rain seeing the lines.
 
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Hey guys

I'm taking delivery of my new Model 3 on Friday... but I've been a bit spooked reading various articles about the removal of radar in 2021 (2022 in our market - Australia), and the deactivation of radars on cars which do have them.

I've had a Mazda CX-5 until now, and while the auto cruise control is a little laggy and clunky, it has proved to be rock-solid stopping when it should, and really hasn't displayed any phantom braking behaviour either.

Early reports of Vision-camera only Autopilot performing really poorly, and an increase in phantom braking, worries me a little. Especially in rain or on dark nights - when my CX-5's radar was still flawless.

Keen to hear from anyone about their experience over the last 18 months (or even newer owners coming from other brands), and whether there's been solid improvement in Basic Autopilot's performance. Have there been situations or locations which have caused it to perform badly a while back, but which have improved with recent software versions?

I'd love to have some confidence that I can trust Autopilot to make good choices, and importantly not to jam the brakes on for no reason on a freeway.

Thanks everyone! Hope to be joining you all as a Tesla owner very soon.

Cheers
Mike
Phantom braking is over-hyped by people who expect too much and don't pay attention to driving at the best of times. But it does exist, and that's why you need to pay attention to driving. My Prius which has a crash alert and braking does an even worst job; it happily trucks along even though all the vehicles ahead have stopped and then slams on the brakes. The rate of closure with the vehicle ahead is alarming at the best of times. But it does ALMOST stop in time, and I have to manually push on the brake peddle at the end to prevent contact. I watched some of the videos posted on phantom braking, and the guy is complaining about 2-3 mph difference on a freeway bend. Well, I speculated that most people slow down that much on a freeway bend anyways. Then there are others complaining about their Tesla wanting to slow down below 85mph on a 65mph freeway...
Tesla vision for parking has been very good so as long as you park in reasonably straight. It tells you to stop, and by the time you respond, the lip is about 2 inches from the curb. Very consistent.
Also, if you have basic autopilot, you shouldn't worry about automation, because there is almost none. Think of it as only a crash advisory, like my Prius - it will slam on the brakes if it thinks it will hit something. That's it really. This also reinforces my original point about people expecting too much from autopilot. I mean, you have basic autopilot, but you write like you expect it to drive like a professional F1 driver.
That said, the Tesla is nice to drive, but it is way better with Enhanced AP or FSD.
 
Recently drove 1200 mile on a trip with a newer M3. It seems improved as compared to a couple of years ago on my M3 with radar removed. I don’t know if it’s all sw or sw + newer car.

It had a few instances of mild letting up on the peddle. Only one more abrupt slow down. But it was not as bad. I think it wasn’t abrupt as before and it was certainly quicker to stop the slowing down and getting back to normal. The whole event felt like it was maybe 1 second long. It was not a “wtf” moment.

Used it mostly in dark/dusk and in rain. It did great in the rain seeing the lines.
I find that my T3 does badly on one stretch of road and two junctions. The curve is a one-way two-lane road but parking on the left and right (who designs roads like this!!) I think the T3 freaks out and slows down thinking it is an imminent head-on collision with the parked cars because it does not realize it is a one-way street. The other complication is a 4 lane to 2 lane intersection, again, on a curve (who designs roads like this!!). The T3 gets confused and just wanders across the junction into a different lane. On another junction, 2 lanes merge into one, the T3 happily attempts to merge into the other car that is half a car's length ahead of me! It surprises me that it let the other car get as close as two feet away without freaking out and flashing crash alerts, and I manually snatch the drivewheel. It did better than human drivers in the last snowstorm!
 
Phantom braking is over-hyped by people who expect too much and don't pay attention to driving at the best of times. But it does exist, and that's why you need to pay attention to driving. My Prius which has a crash alert and braking does an even worst job; it happily trucks along even though all the vehicles ahead have stopped and then slams on the brakes. The rate of closure with the vehicle ahead is alarming at the best of times. But it does ALMOST stop in time, and I have to manually push on the brake peddle at the end to prevent contact. I watched some of the videos posted on phantom braking, and the guy is complaining about 2-3 mph difference on a freeway bend. Well, I speculated that most people slow down that much on a freeway bend anyways. Then there are others complaining about their Tesla wanting to slow down below 85mph on a 65mph freeway...
Tesla vision for parking has been very good so as long as you park in reasonably straight. It tells you to stop, and by the time you respond, the lip is about 2 inches from the curb. Very consistent.
Also, if you have basic autopilot, you shouldn't worry about automation, because there is almost none. Think of it as only a crash advisory, like my Prius - it will slam on the brakes if it thinks it will hit something. That's it really. This also reinforces my original point about people expecting too much from autopilot. I mean, you have basic autopilot, but you write like you expect it to drive like a professional F1 driver.
That said, the Tesla is nice to drive, but it is way better with Enhanced AP or FSD.
See I disagree with this. Our MYLR has experienced multiple phantom braking events on the highway and interstate where it slams the brakes on and drops 10+ mph. Typically when it does this, it's going across a bridge or underpass, but sometimes it seems random. This is using basic autopilot, not EAP or FSD. It's incredibly unnerving to not be able trust something as basic as cruise control because it slams on the brakes when it sees a ghost. If it was a 2-3 mph difference, it wouldn't really bother me.
 
See I disagree with this. Our MYLR has experienced multiple phantom braking events on the highway and interstate where it slams the brakes on and drops 10+ mph. Typically when it does this, it's going across a bridge or underpass, but sometimes it seems random. This is using basic autopilot, not EAP or FSD. It's incredibly unnerving to not be able trust something as basic as cruise control because it slams on the brakes when it sees a ghost. If it was a 2-3 mph difference, it wouldn't really bother me.
I don’t disagree with you. Remember to file “Bug reports”. And hope Tesla programmers make updates. Here are a few high lights:
1. On clear freeway left lane with a slight curve to left. It slows abruptly from 55 to 30, then proceeds to stutter along. I let it do this only bc I knew it was clear behind me. The right lane was packed with slow moving vehicles (freeway splits). This happens even on regular roads with poorly defined lanes. This not phantom braking.
2. Just passed under a bridge with no issues, then it slows from 30 to 5. A big 5 foot wide puddle ahead. This not phantom braking.
3. Slowed down abruptly on 3-lane freeway then speeded up whilst on outside lane. A car had moved abruptly from inside lane to middle lane just ahead of me then slowed down some. This is not phantom braking.
4. Changed freeway lanes for no apparent reason with all lanes clear ahead of me, then changes back for no reason. This happens on every long drive with the exit at least 10 miles away. This has occurred on shorter freeway drive over 5 miles. Is Phantom Lane Changing?? !!
5. Likes to slow down from 50 to 25 on freeway entry roads. Sometimes, it evens shows the wrong speed limits when there are no posted speed signs. Made a bug report every time. Today (2 months later) the speed limit is corrected to 50!! Likewise, make a bug report and write down the exact time. This helps with them updating software (so I am told). I submitted a page long time stamped message to Tesla service - it may have helped as some of my issues are resolved or at least lessened.
 
Phantom braking is over-hyped by people who expect too much and don't pay attention to driving at the best of times.
Sorry but this is false. You are making a lot of assumptions here.

I am one of the unlucky who are stricken by phantom braking. It all depends on your driving conditions. In my case, I drive rural highways every day to and from work. When there's lots of traffic or anywhere in the city it's actually fine. When I have a wide open highway ahead of me, the slow rolling terrain combined with mirages means it hits the brakes at the top of these rises (it must think the road just ends or is driving into a lake or something). 75% are "slow-downs" of 5-10, the other 25% are hard enough stops to send things flying - and again, these tend to occur when there's nothing ahead. It's not a case of not paying attention and missing something in front of you. There are certain things that "trigger" the braking, I happen to live in an area with lots of them.

I'm glad you don't see it. But don't assume those of us who do are lying / not paying attention / just right out of it. It's a real problem.
 
Sorry but this is false. You are making a lot of assumptions here.

I am one of the unlucky who are stricken by phantom braking. It all depends on your driving conditions. In my case, I drive rural highways every day to and from work. When there's lots of traffic or anywhere in the city it's actually fine. When I have a wide open highway ahead of me, the slow rolling terrain combined with mirages means it hits the brakes at the top of these rises (it must think the road just ends or is driving into a lake or something). 75% are "slow-downs" of 5-10, the other 25% are hard enough stops to send things flying - and again, these tend to occur when there's nothing ahead. It's not a case of not paying attention and missing something in front of you. There are certain things that "trigger" the braking, I happen to live in an area with lots of them.

I'm glad you don't see it. But don't assume those of us who do are lying / not paying attention / just right out of it. It's a real problem.
My experience is the same.
Recent trip on two lane roads over rolling terrain with no other traffic led to multiple phantom braking events.
On a long freeway trip also had multiple phantom braking events (not as often).
I don't trust it and don't use it.
 
Not to continue to pile on but just because something doesn't happen to you, doesn't mean it doesn't happen to others. Phantom braking for me is occasional with most of them being mild, however once every few weeks or so, it slams the brakes hard enough to shift the items in the car (i.e. items on the floor, seats) It seems to happen mostly when I'm in a toll lane and the lane next to me is moving slower but also happens in other situations with no perceptible reason for it to slam on the brakes.
 
Not to continue to pile on but just because something doesn't happen to you, doesn't mean it doesn't happen to others.
Absolutely correct. Those that don't have problems hopefully try to help those that do, trying to improve their experience.

It's also important to see the opposite. Just because it happens to you doesn't mean it happens to everyone else.
 
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I have had a Model 3 with EAP for just shy of five years.

For the first four years, radar was enabled and I'd experience phantom braking from time to time - depending on the software version, as frequently as twice a week and as infrequently as once every few months. It was never terribly bothersome. I always drive with my foot braced against the "tunnel" and barely touching the accelerator, ready to give it some juice if needed.

The car updated to a Vision-only software version sometime mid-last year. If anything, phantom braking is even less frequent than it was under the best radar versions.

I only use EAP on interstate and similar highways-never on surface streets or undivided highways. Most of my driving is on urban highways with plenty of overpasses that cast the kinds if shadows that are sometimes thought to cause phantom braking, but I typically have zero problems. I do not, however, often encounter mirages on long, relatively deserted stretches of highway, and I suppose things could be different in such a situation.
 
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Keen to hear from anyone about their experience over the last 18 months (or even newer owners coming from other brands), and whether there's been solid improvement in Basic Autopilot's performance. Have there been situations or locations which have caused it to perform badly a while back, but which have improved with recent software versions?
It's improved significantly in California. If you're on a divided highway it works well, and the latest FSDb works very well in those cases.

But updates outside USA are well behind, particularly left hand drive, so check specifically with AU/NZ and UK experience. AU will have clearer more California-like wider roads, so it will probably perform better.

It all depends on your driving conditions. In my case, I drive rural highways every day to and from work. When there's lots of traffic or anywhere in the city it's actually fine. When I have a wide open highway ahead of me, the slow rolling terrain combined with mirages means it hits the brakes at the top of these rises (it must think the road just ends or is driving into a lake or something). 75% are "slow-downs" of 5-10, the other 25% are hard enough stops to send things flying - and again, these tend to occur when there's nothing ahead. It's not a case of not paying attention and missing something in front of you. There are certain things that "trigger" the braking, I happen to live in an area with lots of them.
If Elon wasn't such a fanatic about work-from-office, he'd have a few engineers who lived in country areas experience this personally. This is also potentially a result of deleting radar, which would have not shown any signal. (the problem then is a low resolution radar detecting a bridge)

The circumstances above are the classic PB, when it can't extend the lane lines to infinity or it sees something 'behind' the hill that it can't understand, it doesn't know that's the road continuing far in distance and not some object stationary in the road. Humans have higher resolution foveas, better understanding of what's happening and better memory.
 
It's improved significantly in California. If you're on a divided highway it works well, and the latest FSDb works very well in those cases.

But updates outside USA are well behind, particularly left hand drive, so check specifically with AU/NZ and UK experience. AU will have clearer more California-like wider roads, so it will probably perform better.


If Elon wasn't such a fanatic about work-from-office, he'd have a few engineers who lived in country areas experience this personally. This is also potentially a result of deleting radar, which would have not shown any signal. (the problem then is a low resolution radar detecting a bridge)

The circumstances above are the classic PB, when it can't extend the lane lines to infinity or it sees something 'behind' the hill that it can't understand, it doesn't know that's the road continuing far in distance and not some object stationary in the road. Humans have higher resolution foveas, better understanding of what's happening and better memory.
When I received FSD about 10 months ago, PB was almost laughable. Anytime it sees a hill and sky after that, it used to slow down. Somehow, it doesn't do it anymore... I get almost no PBs at the exact same locations, and if it does happen, a rather gentle one. I experience strong PBs only once every few weeks or so, and even this is becoming rarer.

Whatever Tesla is doing to train FSD, it is working for me in my driving routes.
 
When I received FSD about 10 months ago, PB was almost laughable. Anytime it sees a hill and sky after that, it used to slow down. Somehow, it doesn't do it anymore... I get almost no PBs at the exact same locations, and if it does happen, a rather gentle one. I experience strong PBs only once every few weeks or so, and even this is becoming rarer.

Whatever Tesla is doing to train FSD, it is working for me in my driving routes.
Is this FSD beta, or the old AP/NoA?

was it a divided highway or not?
 
Sorry but this is false. You are making a lot of assumptions here.

I am one of the unlucky who are stricken by phantom braking. It all depends on your driving conditions. In my case, I drive rural highways every day to and from work. When there's lots of traffic or anywhere in the city it's actually fine. When I have a wide open highway ahead of me, the slow rolling terrain combined with mirages means it hits the brakes at the top of these rises (it must think the road just ends or is driving into a lake or something). 75% are "slow-downs" of 5-10, the other 25% are hard enough stops to send things flying - and again, these tend to occur when there's nothing ahead. It's not a case of not paying attention and missing something in front of you. There are certain things that "trigger" the braking, I happen to live in an area with lots of them.

I'm glad you don't see it. But don't assume those of us who do are lying / not paying attention / just right out of it. It's a real problem.
NOTE: I am NOT defending the failings of Autopilot. I just read that a lot of people expectations of Autopilot to be close to perfect. Autopilots fail miserably in multimillion dollars airliners, and in Billion dollar Boeing spaceships that have a dedicated team of real-time human monitors.
To clarify my Autopilot experiences:
I do 3-4 x 170-mile trips a month, on the freeway and country lanes, over mountain passes. I have had only a few "phantom braking" events where I am at a loss to as why or what may have caused it. Yes, like you say, these are hard enough to make my phone slide off the center armrest. and the speed reduction is surprisingly only about 5-7 miles an hour (I always expect to see 10-20 mph reductions but it is not true). However, most of these braking events are mistaking the distance of another vehicle (like when the vehicle ahead turns off to a side road, or a car crosses in front of me but is clearly far enough away to not be a collision concern). When braking occurs and I can clearly not see a problem, I just push the accelerator, like you would in a regular car.
A persistent "phantom" event is what I call "phantom lane changing" - the freeway lanes ahead are clear for at least one mile, the car decides to switch lanes, and then switches back after 30-60 seconds. It can't be obstructions or traffic - is it seeing a phantom pedestrian/bike?)
I also noticed Autopilot braking when the car behind me is too close and the car ahead is slowing but not using the brakes (distance is closing). This is actually an advance driving technique used to create a front buffer zone. This extra distance allows you to accelerate forward without colliding with the car ahead if the car behind you or in the next lane decides to crash into you for whatever reason.
Tesla has already acknowledged that pedestrians/bikes also cause an issue because of software issues that only see them as blocks with no direction vector. So the car cannot tell if the pedestrian is walking to or from the road even though the graphics depict their direction accurately on screen. I actually took my car in for servicing over these issues. They say the hardware is fine, so it is a software problem. They recommend making those verbal "bug reports", and hopefully the software team will eventually fix them.
TBH, I think the Tesla AI training team needs real professional limo drivers bc Autopilot drives like a drunk. If I drive like Autopilot, I would never pass an advanced driver course. I tend to not use autopilot with backseat passengers for these reasons.
A dangerous thing that Autopilot does is not slowing down at hairpin curves. When the road is clear, I let it go as far as my nerves hold out or till Autopilot just gives up and dumps the car and I have to save it. This is likely a software issue bc it is not recognizing an obvious hairpin turn and slowing down for it - this occurs 100% of the time!
Another potentially hazardous thing is getting so close to parked cars! On several occasions, I take control. On other occasions, bc the parked cars are on the right side, I hear my front passenger gasp thinking we are going to hit them. I estimate about 6" of clear space. This doesn't make sense bc there is about 5 feet of clear space on the other side of my car. A normal driver would have just moved over by a foot or two from the parked cars.
But I reiterate, MOST of these "phantom brake" events can be "countered" by guarding the accelerator pedal, and using it like in any ordinary car. That has been my experience.
 
A dangerous thing that Autopilot does is not slowing down at hairpin curves. When the road is clear, I let it go as far as my nerves hold out or till Autopilot just gives up and dumps the car and I have to save it. This is likely a software issue bc it is not recognizing an obvious hairpin turn and slowing down for it - this occurs 100% of the time!
Another potentially hazardous thing is getting so close to parked cars! On several occasions, I take control. On other occasions, bc the parked cars are on the right side, I hear my front passenger gasp thinking we are going to hit them. I estimate about 6" of clear space. This doesn't make sense bc there is about 5 feet of clear space on the other side of my car. A normal driver would have just moved over by a foot or two from the parked cars.
Have you used a recent FSDb? It definitely improves upon those two specific scenarios.
 
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I've had my MYLR for 4 months and have over 8000 miles on it, mostly highway. The only thing I don't like is the auto-pilot or cruise control. Phantom breaking and horrendous performance in stop and go highway traffic means I no longer use AP or TACC. But since the car is a lot of fun to drive (despite its numb steering), I keep racking up the miles and would not choose anything else (except maybe the MYLR Performance :)).
 
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I have had a Model 3 with EAP for just shy of five years.

For the first four years, radar was enabled and I'd experience phantom braking from time to time - depending on the software version, as frequently as twice a week and as infrequently as once every few months. It was never terribly bothersome. I always drive with my foot braced against the "tunnel" and barely touching the accelerator, ready to give it some juice if needed.

The car updated to a Vision-only software version sometime mid-last year. If anything, phantom braking is even less frequent than it was under the best radar versions.

I only use EAP on interstate and similar highways-never on surface streets or undivided highways. Most of my driving is on urban highways with plenty of overpasses that cast the kinds if shadows that are sometimes thought to cause phantom braking, but I typically have zero problems. I do not, however, often encounter mirages on long, relatively deserted stretches of highway, and I suppose things could be different in such a situation.
I think you are making a point that supports some other observations/theories that with other cars ahead of the Tesla the TACC works better. The software seems to have problems with voids and interprets shadows and other things as obstacles.
 
I think you are making a point that supports some other observations/theories that with other cars ahead of the Tesla the TACC works better. The software seems to have problems with voids and interprets shadows and other things as obstacles.
I think you're onto something there. Definitely seems plausible.

When my 2018 Model 3 was still on radar, used to have occasional phantom braking issues at two different overpasses. I was never able to tell if it was the very structure that was causing the problem, which could have involved either radar or vision, or the deep shadow it cast, which obviously would have been solely a vision issue. Regardless, this really doesn't happen anymore. This area - Downtown Atlanta - is always congested, so there's no way to tell how it would behave if the roads were empty here.
 
Is this FSD beta, or the old AP/NoA?

was it a divided highway or not?
It was initially not on FSD Beta, since back then, I had to qualify for that safety scoring system. That was March 2022.

Then I got on FSD Beta, I believe in June 2022. Of course after the recent update, my highway is driven by FSD too.

It was for all kind of highways, but especially 2 lane rural highway showed pronounced PBs back then.

EDIT : I'm assuming all Teslas will eventually get FSD minus support for traffic light/stop sign turns in a basic AP package for those who don't need the full FSD. I MUCH prefer FSD highway vs the current AP.
 
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