Here's why the 3 isn't a mainstream "affordable" car

[Skotty]

400K+ reservations = mass market. Period.

Certainly a massier market.

It's a good point, and certainly sounds mass market, but you can't quite fully escape the pent up demand argument either (that is further bolstered by the potential for folks trying to get in early in hopes of getting a tax credit).

 

[Justmurr]

We all have our opinions ...guess that's why we are here.
As far as mine goes, anything Toyota is just out for me. They serve their purpose (eye-roll). Just very low levels of "cool" with the look of their cars, again, just an opinion. Even their luxury brand does very little for my eye. Lexus just looks like too many cooks were in those kitchens (sheesh).
So while you can break down all the tangibles and make your case here ...for me it's the intangible aspect that renders this topic moot.
Toyotas aren't cool. Tesla's are.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

We all have our opinions ...guess that's why we are here.
As far as mine goes, anything Toyota is just out for me. They serve their purpose (eye-roll). Just very low levels of "cool" with the look of their cars, again, just an opinion. Even their luxury brand does very little for my eye. Lexus just looks like too many cooks were in those kitchens (sheesh).
So while you can break down all the tangibles and make your case here ...for me it's the intangible aspect that renders this topic moot.
Toyotas aren't cool. Tesla's are.

Exactly. No one has ever pulled up to a high school reunion or driven past an ex-significant other's house and said "Oh yea......I got me a CAMRY now......that will show everyone I've made it."

 

[chronopc]

More on Camry Vs. Model 3 just to add some facts and ask some questions

1. The 2018 Camry SE comes with 18 inch alloy wheels standard
2. Toyota safety sense is very appealing to many buyers. Does the model 3 give you any safety features standard without purchasing the 5k base auto pilot package? I'm guessing Tesla will enable the base safety features without purchasing the 5k package?
3. The Toyota dealer near me has a 2018 Camry Se listed for 25,113. I believe the SE is the most comparable trim level to the base Model
4. I see a compelling argument for the base 3 vs the Camry only if you will receive the federal tax credit bringing your base 3 cost down to 27,500
5. The 27,500 price for a 3 would take you roughly 50,000 miles of driving to break even with fuel cost on Camry excluding oil changes

With this in mind I will still likely buy the 3 but only the base model- with those hideous aero wheels. Why? Because I will likely receive the tax credit and it will effectively knock off 21% of my purchase price.

1. The Model 3 comes with 18 inch aero wheels that boost performance standard and gives you an option to upgrade to 19"
2. You must be kidding on this one. The Model 3 with no PUP upgrades has way more safety features than even a fully loaded Camry.
3. Your beliefs are misguided. Read the details of what a base Model 3 offer vs. the Camry SE.
4. Again comparing the Camry to the Model 3 makes absolutely no sense. They are not the same class and not targeted at the same potentially buyer. Do you think people who are interested in the Model 3 is considering a Camry as an alternative? More likely they are considering other EVs.
5. Check your math on this. With a $27,500 price for a 3 compared to a $25,113 SE, you would need no more than 10k miles to break even in gas savings. In states where electricity is cheap you will need even less miles.

 

[chronopc]

We all have our opinions ...guess that's why we are here.
As far as mine goes, anything Toyota is just out for me. They serve their purpose (eye-roll). Just very low levels of "cool" with the look of their cars, again, just an opinion. Even their luxury brand does very little for my eye. Lexus just looks like too many cooks were in those kitchens (sheesh).
So while you can break down all the tangibles and make your case here ...for me it's the intangible aspect that renders this topic moot.
Toyotas aren't cool. Tesla's are.

Opinions are fine, but the OP is wrong on a lot of facts.

 

[seattlite2004]

I'm a stand in-line Mod 3 reservation holder in the PNW....not an EV owner, and I'm looking to replace my '06, 2006 Prius. Even though I am a reservation holder, I'm still looking at other EV and Plug In options primarily because of reliability and upgraded convenience options from the '06 Prius. Toyotas might not give any type visceral reaction...but they just work..and they work really well.

I want my next car (EV, Plug-in) to work reliably with little and low cost maintenance...I'm not very tolerant to having my car be in the shop overnight. If the Mod S and Mod X posts are indicative of what to expect with the Mod 3...I'm pretty sure I will be disappointed in the Mod 3 reliability and quality. I had pretty high hopes for Mod 3...but I might just end up getting something else EV/Plug-in.....and maybe a Porsche Cayman for the visceral reaction/experience....was hoping to get both in one car..but Mod 3 prob wont be the car.

 

[dreamingof3]

I'm a stand in-line Mod 3 reservation holder in the PNW....not an EV owner, and I'm looking to replace my '06, 2006 Prius. Even though I am a reservation holder, I'm still looking at other EV and Plug In options primarily because of reliability and upgraded convenience options from the '06 Prius. Toyotas might not give any type visceral reaction...but they just work..and they work really well.

I want my next car (EV, Plug-in) to work reliably with little and low cost maintenance...I'm not very tolerant to having my car be in the shop overnight. If the Mod S and Mod X posts are indicative of what to expect with the Mod 3...I'm pretty sure I will be disappointed in the Mod 3 reliability and quality. I had pretty high hopes for Mod 3...but I might just end up getting something else EV/Plug-in.....and maybe a Porsche Cayman for the visceral reaction/experience....was hoping to get both in one car..but Mod 3 prob wont be the car.

Be careful voicing your opinion here. You will get attacked by the all knowing following. And I"ve already stated repeatedly that I own a model s p85. Pretty radical the places people go when they don't agree with you.

 

[chronopc]

I'm a stand in-line Mod 3 reservation holder in the PNW....not an EV owner, and I'm looking to replace my '06, 2006 Prius. Even though I am a reservation holder, I'm still looking at other EV and Plug In options primarily because of reliability and upgraded convenience options from the '06 Prius. Toyotas might not give any type visceral reaction...but they just work..and they work really well.

I want my next car (EV, Plug-in) to work reliably with little and low cost maintenance...I'm not very tolerant to having my car be in the shop overnight. If the Mod S and Mod X posts are indicative of what to expect with the Mod 3...I'm pretty sure I will be disappointed in the Mod 3 reliability and quality. I had pretty high hopes for Mod 3...but I might just end up getting something else EV/Plug-in.....and maybe a Porsche Cayman for the visceral reaction/experience....was hoping to get both in one car..but Mod 3 prob wont be the car.

That's a fair point. Tesla hasn't had a good track record with quality with their first production vehicles for the Model S and Model X. My hope is that they've learned from those experiences. I am okay having my Model 3 overnight for them to fix it if they provide me with a Tesla as a loaner.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

I'm a stand in-line Mod 3 reservation holder in the PNW....not an EV owner, and I'm looking to replace my '06, 2006 Prius. Even though I am a reservation holder, I'm still looking at other EV and Plug In options primarily because of reliability and upgraded convenience options from the '06 Prius. Toyotas might not give any type visceral reaction...but they just work..and they work really well.

I want my next car (EV, Plug-in) to work reliably with little and low cost maintenance...I'm not very tolerant to having my car be in the shop overnight. If the Mod S and Mod X posts are indicative of what to expect with the Mod 3...I'm pretty sure I will be disappointed in the Mod 3 reliability and quality. I had pretty high hopes for Mod 3...but I might just end up getting something else EV/Plug-in.....and maybe a Porsche Cayman for the visceral reaction/experience....was hoping to get both in one car..but Mod 3 prob wont be the car.

The entire point of the Model 3 was to make it more reliable/manufacturable than the S/X. Doesn't mean it will end up that way, but Tesla is attempting to give you the vehicle you would prefer.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Be careful voicing your opinion here. You will get attacked by the all knowing following. And I"ve already stated repeatedly that I own a model s p85. Pretty radical the places people go when they don't agree with you.

You weren't "attacked" for your opinion. People disagree with your wildly ridiculous premise.

 

[WhiskySTL]

4. Again comparing the Camry to the Model 3 makes absolutely no sense. They are not the same class and not targeted at the same potentially buyer. Do you think people who are interested in the Model 3 is considering a Camry as an alternative? More likely they are considering other EVs.

More likely, they are considering other entry luxury cars. I'd love to see the numbers on this - what people are switching from, and what, if any, other cars they are considering instead of the Model 3. I believe it's a mix of EVs & luxury cars. From the articles I have seen on the topic, a good proportion of people are switching from a BMW 3 series.

Earlier this year, I spent some time considering a new car purchase. I test drove the Audi A4 (Virtual Cockpit is killer!) and the Alfa Romeo Giulia (wow, the handling). I'd ended up leaning toward buying my BMW when the lease ends in Jan (because I love it).

Then... I was reminded that this is the year of the Model 3... and I finally reserved one, in June. In most other aspects of my life, I am very environmentally conscious, but my car has always been a weakness/guilty pleasure. I have lusted after the Model S (finally! green + performance!) since the beginning but never felt I could justify the cost. Probably like a lot of people here, I'm part of that small cross-segment who care about the earth a lot but also like cars a lot.

Anyhow, the Model 3 appears to hold its own against other entry luxury cars, whether you are eco-minded or not! Personally, I am now fielding inquiries from Audi dealers, Alfa Romeo dealers, and BMW dealers by informing them that no, I'm no longer interested in their latest & greatest deals because I have a Tesla Model 3 coming in the spring.

 

[dreamingof3]

You weren't "attacked" for your opinion. People disagree with your wildly ridiculous premise.

My premise isn't "ridiculous" in any way shape or form. People don't like change- people are used to getting gasoline and having their car readily available. You combine this with the increased cost of an ev vs. a Camry and you see why people will opt for the less expensive vehicle. Any buyer of the model 3 is taking a reliability risk in that there is no track record on the 3 vs. the Camry. Here is the honest truth- Tesla hasn't invested enough in charging stations. Take Ohio for example, the main question I get is where do you charge? What if you run out of charge? What if you aren't near a charger when you need one? These are the questions I get. There are a total of NINE count them NINE superchargers in Ohio. Not good enough at all IMO. Until Tesla is willing to quadruple their charging locations I still feel many people will be too anxious to switch to an EV. Before you start with the - "you can charge at home " argument please save it. I'm taking about chargers that are readily available on the road and not hundreds of miles apart. The second best thing to a supercharger near me is a 1771 plug that gets 18 mph. Again, way too slow IMO.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

My premise isn't "ridiculous" in any way shape or form. People don't like change- people are used to getting gasoline and having their car readily available. You combine this with the increased cost of an ev vs. a Camry and you see why people will opt for the less expensive vehicle. Any buyer of the model 3 is taking a reliability risk in that there is no track record on the 3 vs. the Camry. Here is the honest truth- Tesla hasn't invested enough in charging stations. Take Ohio for example, the main question I get is where do you charge? What if you run out of charge? What if you aren't near a charger when you need one? These are the questions I get. There are a total of NINE count them NINE superchargers in Ohio. Not good enough at all IMO. Until Tesla is willing to quadruple their charging locations I still feel many people will be too anxious to switch to an EV. Before you start with the - "you can charge at home " argument please save it. I'm taking about chargers that are readily available on the road and not hundreds of miles apart. The second best thing to a supercharger near me is a 1771 plug that gets 18 mph. Again, way too slow IMO.

I upgraded from a Mazda 6 to a Model X. I certainly could have bought a minivan for much less, but I didn't. Other people have been trying to explain to you that people are willing to spend a lot more money than they otherwise would because Teslas are desirable, for a multitude of reasons.

Tesla is building out the charging network, so I'm not really sure why you're bringing today's infrastructure into the discussion...

If people only bought vehicles out of necessity, Toyota would sell a lot more Camrys.

 

[Runt8]

As noted several times in this thread, a 4 cylinder Camry is no where near a match for Model 3. To be fair, we should be comparing to the V6 in terms of power, or the Hybrid for efficiency.

Here's a similar V6 Camry:
2018 Camry XLE V6 (3.5L V6 Engine, 8-Speed Automatic): $34,400
Driver Assist Package with options: $1,990
Total: $36,390

Or the hybrid:
2018 Camry Hybrid SE (2.5L 4-Cyl Gas/Electric Hybrid): $29,500
Audio Package with options: $2,905
Total: $33,300

The V6 will end up costing much more in gas, and the hybrid will have no where near the performance (and, as configured, doesn't have the Autopilot-esque safety features - for that you have to bump up to the XLE version, which brings total cost to $36,840).

This also is ignoring tax incentives for the Model 3 ($12,500 off where I live).

 

[chronopc]

My premise isn't "ridiculous" in any way shape or form. People don't like change- people are used to getting gasoline and having their car readily available. You combine this with the increased cost of an ev vs. a Camry and you see why people will opt for the less expensive vehicle. Any buyer of the model 3 is taking a reliability risk in that there is no track record on the 3 vs. the Camry. Here is the honest truth- Tesla hasn't invested enough in charging stations. Take Ohio for example, the main question I get is where do you charge? What if you run out of charge? What if you aren't near a charger when you need one? These are the questions I get. There are a total of NINE count them NINE superchargers in Ohio. Not good enough at all IMO. Until Tesla is willing to quadruple their charging locations I still feel many people will be too anxious to switch to an EV. Before you start with the - "you can charge at home " argument please save it. I'm taking about chargers that are readily available on the road and not hundreds of miles apart. The second best thing to a supercharger near me is a 1771 plug that gets 18 mph. Again, way too slow IMO.

Of course not everyone is open to change, but enough people are for the Model 3 and Tesla to be a success. If no one wanted change there would never be any innovation and products like the iPhone would have been a complete failure.

Why is charging at home not a good option?

 

[chronopc]

This also is ignoring tax incentives for the Model 3 ($12,500 off where I live).

Can I borrow your address to get the Coloroda EV incentive?

 

[likeafox]

My premise isn't "ridiculous" in any way shape or form. People don't like change- people are used to getting gasoline and having their car readily available. You combine this with the increased cost of an ev vs. a Camry and you see why people will opt for the less expensive vehicle. Any buyer of the model 3 is taking a reliability risk in that there is no track record on the 3 vs. the Camry. Here is the honest truth- Tesla hasn't invested enough in charging stations. Take Ohio for example, the main question I get is where do you charge? What if you run out of charge? What if you aren't near a charger when you need one? These are the questions I get. There are a total of NINE count them NINE superchargers in Ohio. Not good enough at all IMO. Until Tesla is willing to quadruple their charging locations I still feel many people will be too anxious to switch to an EV. Before you start with the - "you can charge at home " argument please save it. I'm taking about chargers that are readily available on the road and not hundreds of miles apart. The second best thing to a supercharger near me is a 1771 plug that gets 18 mph. Again, way too slow IMO.

I did a quick search for destination chargers in Ohio. There are a lot more than 9. So 9 superchargers, many more destination chargers, and charging at home are all available. I second chronopc, why should I save the charging at home argument?

 

[kev1n]

i honestly see little value in comparing cars. people who want to buy a car whether because of a brand, luxury, loyalty, efficiency. performance, size typically are already settled with what specific car they want and that is the only car they go out and test drive and make their decision. I've very rarely seen a real life situation where my friends or family would compare every car or multiple cars in its class.

 

[WhiskySTL]

My premise isn't "ridiculous" in any way shape or form. People don't like change- people are used to getting gasoline and having their car readily available. You combine this with the increased cost of an ev vs. a Camry and you see why people will opt for the less expensive vehicle. Any buyer of the model 3 is taking a reliability risk in that there is no track record on the 3 vs. the Camry. Here is the honest truth- Tesla hasn't invested enough in charging stations. Take Ohio for example, the main question I get is where do you charge? What if you run out of charge? What if you aren't near a charger when you need one? These are the questions I get. There are a total of NINE count them NINE superchargers in Ohio. Not good enough at all IMO. Until Tesla is willing to quadruple their charging locations I still feel many people will be too anxious to switch to an EV. Before you start with the - "you can charge at home " argument please save it. I'm taking about chargers that are readily available on the road and not hundreds of miles apart. The second best thing to a supercharger near me is a 1771 plug that gets 18 mph. Again, way too slow IMO.

Your premise is beyond ridiculous. It's amazing that you still don't get it. There is this concept called market segment.

THE MODEL 3 IS NOT COMPETING WITH THE CAMRY.

You should try going on a BMW forum and complain about BMW pricing and compare the BMW 320i to a Toyota Camry. I'm sure you'll win lots of converts!

 

[ModelNforNerd]

My premise isn't "ridiculous" in any way shape or form. People don't like change- people are used to getting gasoline and having their car readily available. You combine this with the increased cost of an ev vs. a Camry and you see why people will opt for the less expensive vehicle. Any buyer of the model 3 is taking a reliability risk in that there is no track record on the 3 vs. the Camry. Here is the honest truth- Tesla hasn't invested enough in charging stations. Take Ohio for example, the main question I get is where do you charge? What if you run out of charge? What if you aren't near a charger when you need one? These are the questions I get. There are a total of NINE count them NINE superchargers in Ohio. Not good enough at all IMO. Until Tesla is willing to quadruple their charging locations I still feel many people will be too anxious to switch to an EV. Before you start with the - "you can charge at home " argument please save it. I'm taking about chargers that are readily available on the road and not hundreds of miles apart. The second best thing to a supercharger near me is a 1771 plug that gets 18 mph. Again, way too slow IMO.

Well, for one....range-charging at home for a long trip means you can go roughly 300 miles in the LR Model 3.

So it's very relevant. Along that 300 miles, I don't care how densely-packed those chargers are....I have enough range to bypass them. I care that there are chargers available along my path of travel that can replenish a large portion of my battery's capacity in a short period of time.


If I was in a gas-powered car, I'd have to either get gas and come home to rest before setting off on my journey, or set off...make a pit stop for gas, and THEN drive on my way

See the difference when you can leave your house with a full battery every day?


Not to mention.....the utilities have a much harder time fluctuating prices for electricity.....but you can bet your ass that gas is going up next week with the double-whammy of Hurricane Harvey shutting down Texas oil production...leading into Labor Day weekend.