Here's why the 3 isn't a mainstream "affordable" car

[JohnSnowNW]

the quotes I've gotten from Seattle electricians make this a $1k-$2k inconvenience (to install a NEMA 14-50 outlet 2 feet away from my garage fuse panel).

Planning to try out plugging into a standard wall outlet and see how well that does at replenishing our daily 10-mile roundtrip commute.

That's a ridiculous amount of money for the work. Assuming you have the room in your panel that sort of work should max out at $500 with permitting. I guess I can't speak for Seattle pricing, but that's highway robbery.

Maybe purchase the equipment and run the wire yourself? Just have an electrician hook everything up?

 

[chronopc]

the quotes I've gotten from Seattle electricians make this a $1k-$2k inconvenience (to install a NEMA 14-50 outlet 2 feet away from my garage fuse panel).

Planning to try out plugging into a standard wall outlet and see how well that does at replenishing our daily 10-mile roundtrip commute.

Is your dryer in the garage? You should be able to charge at 24amps using the dryer outlet and get around 20 miles of range per hour.

 

[rcarpen22]

Speaking of objectivity... Why, objectively, would a $60,000 3-4 year old pre-autopilot 85 RWD Model S be better than a $60,000 brand new Model 3?

Here's (objectively) why it's not better:
Compared to the $60k Model 3 the typical $60k used Model S has:

• No autopilot or EAP
• No chance at all of FSD features.
• Less range (even without battery degredation)
• Slower acceleration (unless you can find a P85)
• No door pockets
• Cup holders in the wrong place ergonomically
• No lighted vanity mirrors
• Poorer build quality in those model years.
• Poorer rear visibility
• Less rear headroom
• Larger turn radius
• More difficult to park due to size

I believe that a late 2015 70D with AP 1 could be had for around $60k. I don't think FSD is coming anytime soon. The range adequate for me. It's faster than either of the M3s. I don't care about door pockets and the cupholders are perfectly fine for me. I have no idea if it has lighted vanity mirrors and I've been driving it for 2 years, so not sure I'd call that a feature. I've also had no issues with ear visibilty, rear headroom, or turning radius. Since a 70D will park itself, I'm not sure that's even a valid point. I'm going to disagree that your list is objective proof that a new Model 3 is better than a used Model S. However, it's kind of a dumb thing to argue about since (contrary to your assertion) it is a completely subjective comparison.

 

[JeffK]

I believe that a late 2015 70D with AP 1 could be had for around $60k. I don't think FSD is coming anytime soon. The range adequate for me. It's faster than either of the M3s. I don't care about door pockets and the cupholders are perfectly fine for me. I have no idea if it has lighted vanity mirrors and I've been driving it for 2 years, so not sure I'd call that a feature. I've also had no issues with ear visibilty, rear headroom, or turning radius. Since a 70D will park itself, I'm not sure that's even a valid point. I'm going to disagree that your list is objective proof that a new Model 3 is better than a used Model S. However, it's kind of a dumb thing to argue about since (contrary to your assertion) it is a completely subjective comparison.

You are providing anecdotal evidence and everything I listed was completely objective

Although you can find a few 70Ds on autotrader and sites like that. It's still slower to 60 mph (because 5.2 > 5.1 seconds), less range, and everything else I listed besides AP1 if, and that's a big if, you can find one with AP1. I did qualify my comment with the word typical though, there will always be a few exceptions.

 

[SageBrush]

That's a ridiculous amount of money for the work. Assuming you have the room in your panel that sort of work should max out at $500 with permitting. I guess I can't speak for Seattle pricing, but that's highway robbery.

I paid $200 for about a 10-15 foot run and a 14-50 outlet.

The trick might be to not mention EV at all.

 

[206er]

That's a ridiculous amount of money for the work. Assuming you have the room in your panel that sort of work should max out at $500 with permitting. I guess I can't speak for Seattle pricing, but that's highway robbery.

Maybe purchase the equipment and run the wire yourself? Just have an electrician hook everything up?

unfortunately I'm not the most handy person... it does seem high compared to what I've read here about install costs in other parts of the country. we definitely have room in our panel, things are just priced for tech salaries here, electrical work included (I'm not a tech worker).

 

[206er]

I paid $200 for about a 10-15 foot run and a 14-50 outlet.

The trick might be to not mention EV at all.

wow, the City of Seattle permit fee alone is $125. Good call on not mentioning the EV. One of the 14-50 quotes was titled "quote for new Tesla charging equipment", lol.

 

[206er]

Is your dryer in the garage? You should be able to charge at 24amps using the dryer outlet and get around 20 miles of range per hour.

no, our washer and dryer are on the 3rd floor of our townhouse.

 

[chronopc]

You are providing anecdotal evidence and everything I listed was completely objective

Although you can find a few 70Ds on autotrader and sites like that. It's still slower to 60 mph (because 5.2 > 5.1 seconds), less range, and everything else I listed besides AP1 if, and that's a big if, you can find one with AP1. I did qualify my comment with the word typical though, there will always be a few exceptions.

Cheapest I could find with AP1, $64k. But with no tax rebate, it's really the equivalent of $74k.
Model S 85D 5YJSA1H20FF094361 | Tesla

There's also one for $58k that has the option to unlock AP1. Not sure how much that costs.
85 kWh Model S 5YJSA1H16FFP79021 | Tesla

 

[GenSao]

I paid $200 for about a 10-15 foot run and a 14-50 outlet.

The trick might be to not mention EV at all.

Another option is to have the NEMA 14-50 outlet installed as part of a Solar Installation. It cost me only an extra $250 in CA.

 

[SageBrush]

wow, the City of Seattle permit fee alone is $125. Good call on not mentioning the EV. One of the 14-50 quotes was titled "quote for new Tesla charging equipment", lol.

Other common uses for the 14-50 outlet include electric ranges and RVs

 

[rcarpen22]

You are providing anecdotal evidence and everything I listed was completely objective

You provided a list of things that are trivial and stated that they objectively demonstrate that a new Model 3 is better than a 2015(ish) Model S. My original statement was that I decided that I would rather have my Model S than a new Model 3. I'm not sure why you responded at all. All I have ever said is that I prefer the S. You stated that the 3 is objectively better, which is kind of stupid. Then again, me taking the time to argue with an internet troll is kind of stupid too, so...

 

[JeffK]

You provided a list of things that are trivial and stated that they objectively demonstrate that a new Model 3 is better than a 2015(ish) Model S. My original statement was that I decided that I would rather have my Model S than a new Model 3. I'm not sure why you responded at all. All I have ever said is that I prefer the S. You stated that the 3 is objectively better, which is kind of stupid. Then again, me taking the time to argue with an internet troll is kind of stupid too, so...

It's far from trivial. So much so that Tesla dedicated engineering time to correct the issues in the Model 3 after correcting some for the Model X.

We were proving that a $60k used Model S is not as good of a deal (objectively) as a $60k Model 3.

I totally expect a Model S interior redesign in the not too distant future.

 

[Krugerrand]

More on Camry Vs. Model 3 just to add some facts and ask some questions

1. The 2018 Camry SE comes with 18 inch alloy wheels standard
2. Toyota safety sense is very appealing to many buyers. Does the model 3 give you any safety features standard without purchasing the 5k base auto pilot package? I'm guessing Tesla will enable the base safety features without purchasing the 5k package?
3. The Toyota dealer near me has a 2018 Camry Se listed for 25,113. I believe the SE is the most comparable trim level to the base Model
4. I see a compelling argument for the base 3 vs the Camry only if you will receive the federal tax credit bringing your base 3 cost down to 27,500
5. The 27,500 price for a 3 would take you roughly 50,000 miles of driving to break even with fuel cost on Camry excluding oil changes

With this in mind I will still likely buy the 3 but only the base model- with those hideous aero wheels. Why? Because I will likely receive the tax credit and it will effectively knock off 21% of my purchase price.

1. Meh
2. Meh - Model 3 will have a 5* safety rating across the board and in all sub-categories. As an excellent driver with an excellent driving record that's safety sense enough for me - protects me from the not so excellent drivers and that's all I care about.
3. Meh - not a fan of the dealership experience. Am enjoying the configure and purchase online though.
4. Meh
5. Meh

You can fact check to your heart's content, the Camry ICE anything is about as exciting and appealing as a root canal. I'm highly optioning out my Model 3 and I'm going to drive it every day like I stole with a big sugar-eating grin on my face.

 

[Krugerrand]

I actually had a friend in high school who lived in a rural home and was pretty wealthy. Their family had a small gas tank (couple hundred gallons) at their house that was refilled by a tanker every couple weeks so they'd just fill up at home. There were plenty of gas stations nearby (within 10 or 15 mins) but I guess they liked the convenience of filling up at home. Only time I've seen that, but the point above reminded me of it.

That's pretty standard on most farms and has little to do with being pretty wealthy. Usually the tank is for diesel so that filling tractors and such is convenient. But you can have two tanks with the second for gas.

 

[Krugerrand]

My in-laws have a tank at their house that they just stopped using about 2 years ago. The tanks don't last forever, and they didn't want to spend the money on the bladder that would have extended the life of the tank. They retired years ago and are down to one car, so can't really blame them for letting the tank go.

Usually the tanks are owned by the fuel provider and when the tank gets old they simply come and replace it with a new one. I don't know anybody who has outright bought their fuel tank. Well, I guess I do now.

 

[rcarpen22]

We were proving that a $60k used Model S is not as good of a deal (objectively) as a $60k Model 3.

Well we agree on that. I definitely think the Model 3 is a good deal.

 

[Stolz25]

Usually the tanks are owned by the fuel provider and when the tank gets old they simply come and replace it with a new one. I don't know anybody who has outright bought their fuel tank. Well, I guess I do now.

If it works like a propane tank around here they can screw you over if you don't buy them because you are usually under contract to buy from someone specific. I guess with car fuel it's not that big a deal because you can always just not use it, but with propane you can get ripped off big time not buying the tank.

 

[McRat]

Can you imagine Toyota charging 1,000 for any other Camry paint than black?

All Camrys should be black or camo, so it's harder for your friends to see you driving one.

35k is now 36k

It's actually $37k (dest) for a base car in white, but who's counting? Pickups can be over $70k today.

Even with a gov credit that car is now 27,500 7,000 more than a 2017 Camry SE on clearance

Some states have credits, some utilities have credit. We got bribes to the tune of $9,450 each for EREVs, so $29k roughtly. EVs were $10,450 cash in a paper bag in the trunk. Then I held the dealer's kid at gunpoint, and he sliced $6k more off. Yeah, way less than a Camry.

Most people will not get this credit

Sucks to be unlucky that's for sure.

But what about the wheels? If you want anything other than the lame aero wheels its now 37,500?

Base Camrys are steel with cheap plastic covers that fall off right?

So 35k is now 37,500. We are getting into a range that is about 10k more than the average US car.

Naw, the mean ATP is about $34k last I looked.

But add the roof and base auto pilot and now we are at near 47k???

Without having a convertible option, I'd go with a roof. You can buy AP2 any time you want, or not at all.

Please explain how 47k is a mass market affordable car?

Mass Market Affordable Cars are Toyota Corollas, Yaris, Chevy Spark, etc. A Camry is not affordable for many young people without overspending.

Tesla was right when they said the model S is far superior. You are better off getting a used model S from the prices I've seen. I also cannot believe the loaded base model of the 3 is 59k. That is absurd

The Model S better be superior. It's twice as much, right?

You are driving a used car already. Why not try a new one. It's sweet.

 

[Krugerrand]

If it works like a propane tank around here they can screw you over if you don't buy them because you are usually under contract to buy from someone specific. I guess with car fuel it's not that big a deal because you can always just not use it, but with propane you can get ripped off big time not buying the tank.

I've never known there to be an issue with the provider and I'm not aware of any need to sign a contract for a period of time thought that might be a requirement in some areas/for some companies.

It's hard to know how much fuel/diesel you'd use and that can vary depending on time of year. There are obviously times when you use your tractor/farm truck more often than other times. You could either call them when you needed the tank filled, or you could call them and tell them to put a certain amount in the tank, or you could have them come at regular intervals and automatically fill your tank. For the latter they'd monitor your use for you.

Yes, you'd be buying from a single provider but if they tried to screw you you'd simply call them to come pick up the tank and call another company to bring you a tank. Pricing of the fuel/diesel is cheaper than at a gas station but obviously fluctuates per the general market.