HW3 to HW4 Upgrade

[john19951]

Information I've seen says HW3 to HW4 upgrade would be free if you have FSD, implying that if your car did not have FSD, the hardware upgrade would be chargeable.

Is there any confirmation of this in any documents on the Tesla UK website.

The UK generic order agreement says hardware is NOT updated after an order is placed - apparently contradicting what I've seen posted elsewhere.

I know that HW4 is many months away, and possibly a year or two before it is available in UK. I also know that many people will argue that there will be no benefit from FSD for a decade or two, and that these people will argue that HW4 is pointless anyway.

 

[NorfolkMustard]

Impossible for anyone to say with any certainty.

My guess is that if HW3 is FSD-capable there will be no free upgrades to HW4 for anyone.

 

[Tam]

3..Information I've seen says HW3 to HW4 upgrade would be free if you have FSD...

The only FSD free upgrade is from paid FSD HW2.0 or HW2.5 to HW3.0, and not from HW3 to beyond such as HW4, HW5...

 

[miimura]

So far, I don't believe you can buy the FSD computer (HW3) upgrade at all if you didn't already pay for FSD. "HW4" doesn't even exist yet. It remains to be seen how well the HW3 computer and FSD software can perform the promised FSD features. If you are planning to buy a Tesla, buy it for what it offers today, not what is promised for the future. Any OTA updates or future features are just a bonus.

 

[DanCar]

The only FSD free upgrade is from paid FSD HW2.0 or HW2.5 to HW3.0, and not from HW3 to beyond such as HW4, HW5...

What makes you say that? Elon promised FSD. There is no FSD. Many are predicting that hardware upgrades will be required to achieve FSD. Elon said if computer hardware upgrade is required then it will be done.

 

[NewbieT]

Until the 4D rewrite rollout current software probably using <10% of HW3 potential. HW4 is years away for the UK. There’s MS & MX’s still waiting for the HW3 upgrade.

 

[Tam]

What makes you say that? Elon promised FSD. There is no FSD. Many are predicting that hardware upgrades will be required to achieve FSD. Elon said if computer hardware upgrade is required then it will be done.

He only promised paid FSD would have a minimum of HW3 upgrade but there's no mention of any further free upgrade after that:

"Anyone who purchased full self-driving will get FSD computer upgrade for free. This is the only change between Autopilot HW2.5 & HW3. Going forward “HW3” will just be called FSD Computer, which is accurate. No change to vehicle sensors or wire harness needed. This is v important."

The promise is specific even though HW4 has been in the work.

 

[KennethS]

Considering how long it is taking for a software re-write that utilises the extra power of the HW3 processing power -- I would guess the release of HW4 and subsequently a software update that makes use of it will be some years off.

 

[gangzoom]

Considering how long it is taking for a software re-write that utilises the extra power of the HW3 processing power -- I would guess the release of HW4 and subsequently a software update that makes use of it will be some years off.

FSD has been promised since 2017, the amazing rewrite was suppose to be out this year but I understand Elon is now saying 2021......Worrying about HW4 when Tesla cannot even get the AP software working in native code for HW3 is like worrying about the Sun eventually going supernova .

 

[Battpower]

On the face of it, there is no question imo, the upgrades to HW3 were 'included' because Tesla knew FSD wasn't going anywhere on the (then) current hardware.

Since we haven't even got realistic date for FSD using HW3 capabilities, thinking about HW4 is pointless at the moment.

However, Elon keeps bringing up L5 capabilities and sticking to a system using cameras, ultrasonics and radar only. If it turns out that HW3 just doesn't have the required power, then I for one would argue that Tesla owe me whatever it takes to deliver on their promises.

 

[Tam]

...Tesla owe me whatever it takes to deliver on their promises.

I agree that when I bought FSD, I bought the function, not a specific hardware HW2.0 or beyond (why stopping at HW4 when it might need HW5, HW6, HW19 in a near future?)

I also think that if current sensor hardware is inadequate to achieve FSD, since I already paid for FSD, Tesla should not charge me additionally to get more radars, LIDARS...

In reality, I doubt that will happen.

 

[cypho]

I'm willing to believe that HW3 computer is up to the task of delivering FSD. But I do not believe the cameras are anywhere close to being reliable enough to not require a driver on standby.

Image quality in good conditions may be fine, but the cameras get dirty too easily in poor weather and other than the front camera there is no self-cleaning function. And the cameras fog up in cold weather. And the cameras get blinded by the glare of the sun at the wrong time of day.

All of those HW problems are probably much easier to solve than the software portion. But no matter how powerful the computer and how sophisticated the software, the car can't drive itself if the cameras are blinded.

 

[Battpower]

the car can't drive itself if the cameras are blinded.

And as winter approaches, lower sun in the sky and higher humity / more rain we will all be reminded of that. However I'm prepared to cut enough slack that I was never promised FSD in anything worse than typical Southern California weather! But until I get something that can reasonably live up to the claims, I don't think the version of hardware should come into question. Just provide whatever it takes to deliver what was sold.

 

[gangzoom]

But no matter how powerful the computer and how sophisticated the software, the car can't drive itself if the cameras are blinded.

It's the otherway around, we can drive with only one very limited field of view. In bright sun cameras can actually see much more than our eyes when blinded. F1 drivers can race at 100mph+ within inches of each other in torrential rain with hardly any vision.

If the software is good enough you need very little vision, the question is if Tesla (or anyone else) can come up with the software. Even the DeepMind team who are surely due a Noble prize soon aren't even close to achieving the kind of AI needed for FSD, I doubt Tesla have software talent needed.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

It's the otherway around, we can drive with only one very limited field of view. In bright sun cameras can actually see much more than our eyes when blinded. F1 drivers can race at 100mph+ within inches of each other in torrential rain with hardly any vision.

If the software is good enough you need very little vision, the question is if Tesla (or anyone else) can come up with the software. Even the DeepMind team who are surely due a Noble prize soon aren't even close to achieving the kind of AI needed for FSD, I doubt Tesla have software talent needed.

We have the advantage of being able to move our head to get a better position and shield our eyes, and if we got something in our eye we have a finger that would wipe it away. It goes horribly wrong if we can't see when driving. I suspect people with only 1 eye are allowed to drive for social reasons rather than suggesting their vision is as good as someone with two eyes as a pair of eyes working together has incredible depth perception. Try it, sit in your car and keep your head stuck to the headrest for the whole journey.

 

[Tam]

...I'm willing to believe that HW3 computer is up to the task of delivering FSD...

I am not an expert and I used to go along to believe that HW2.0 introduced in 2016 was good enough for future FSD.

Now that I realized that FSD is still in its very infancy state as evidenced by HW2.0 progressed to HW2.5, then now HW3. Logically, now I doubt that HW4 will do it.

FSD is just like a vision to cut the cord on the corded phone.

Once we achieved the vision of cutting the cord on the corded phone and able to roam around the house wirelessly, a different version of cordless would appear as a cellular phone. Once the vision of cellular phone achieved, then there would be a smartphone, then there have been progress on 1G, 2G, 3G, 4G and now 5G...

So, cutting the cord of the phone was a big hurdle, a big step but that's not the end of paying for more.

Again, I am not an expert, but that's what I think when it comes to FSD. It's a big hurdle, a big step but once we achieve it, expect to pay more for the next step in FSD.

 

[Rockster]

What makes you say that? Elon promised FSD. There is no FSD. Many are predicting that hardware upgrades will be required to achieve FSD. Elon said if computer hardware upgrade is required then it will be done.

This. Whatever hardware is required to be retrofit (if any) to support FSD will be provided at no additional charge to those who have already paid for FSD. This is stated policy. Whether FSD can be achieved with the current HW3 or if there will need to be an upgrade to something beyond HW3 is entirely speculative.

For those who have not paid for FSD it seems quite unlikely that there would be any reason to pay to upgrade to better hardware, if that's even an option.

 

[Mark_T]

For those who have not paid for FSD it seems quite unlikely that there would be any reason to pay to upgrade to better hardware, if that's even an option.

It is certainly priced as an option, I just doubt they will supply it at the moment.

When I booked my MS in for the upgrade recently (3rd time was the charm) I got a fully priced invoice appear in my account for around £1200 or so as I recall.

It became 'free' by the time the work was done of course, but it is obviously on their system as a payable item.

 

[nuts]

FSD has been promised since 2017, the amazing rewrite was suppose to be out this year but I understand Elon is now saying 2021......Worrying about HW4 when Tesla cannot even get the AP software working in native code for HW3 is like worrying about the Sun eventually going supernova .

and... this is why you dont pay a company for a future release. you'll never see it half the time during the 10 or so years someone might own the car.

 

[CRIMSON_DATE]

and... this is why you dont pay a company for a future release. you'll never see it half the time during the 10 or so years someone might own the car.

After 10 years or after the car was not drivable if I had purchased FSD I would be parking that piece of junk in my backyard until FSD was real or I got refunded from tesla because they gave up.