I won't name them, but one of them says "eh?" and likes hockey.
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I won't name them, but one of them says "eh?" and likes hockey.
I am constantly called a troll and asked "what are your intentions" whenever I say anything critical of Tesla or Musk. It seems that valid criticism of the company or its dear leader is cause for questioning ones intentions, yet fanboys coming here to blindly praise Tesla in order to fan the fire under the stock price aren't questioned and surely have nothing but the purest, most golden of intentions?
Tesla has problems, folks, and the vast majority of them start at the top. In 2017 owners are receiving cars with obvious and alarming QC issues. Autopilot 2 was launched pre-beta and never should have seen the light of day until it was ready. Every software release has major, glaring and obvious bugs that testers should have caught if, you know, they actually tested things; and half the time previously resolved bugs come back for no apparent reason. CPO buying process is a big mess, I've heard nothing but complaints from customers. Employee turnover at Tesla must be staggering because very few of their frontline people (except Service) give a damn. Either they aren't paid enough, are overworked, don't like their jobs, or are not properly supervised and held accountable.
As someone who has personally interacted with Elon Musk and executive staff, it's clear that they all have the best of intentions and are wonderful people. However, something is wrong at Tesla. Something is fundamentally broken and has been for years. The #1 complaint about Tesla in these forums is communication. One can surmise that if their outward communication is so bad, imagine how bad their internal communication must be.
This all lands at Musk's feet, as CEO he assumes responsibility for this dysfunction and must act to fix it. Except he hasn't, and won't, because Musk himself is the source of the dysfunction. Last year he famously camped out in a sleeping bag on the Model X production line to ensure quality. I'm sorry, but when was the last time Mary Barra or Carlos Ghosn had to break out their sleeping bags to make sure their companies were building quality cars? Seems to me that Musk lacks certain leadership qualities that make people want to work hard and actually do their jobs, or the management structure that he has put into place is not held accountable and pushes problems downstream to make them someone else's problem. If I had to guess, I'd say it's the latter. Pushing problems downstream has been Tesla's hallmark since it started shipping cars in 2012. I think that's Tesla's internal problem as well, don't solve problems when you encounter them, instead move them to someone else's desk. Don't fix QC issues, push them downstream for owners to resolve with service, etc.
Sadly, I have no choice but to look at Mr. Musk and question his management style and the impact it's having on the entire organization. I keep coming back to the fact that something is broken internally at Tesla, it's so obvious to anyone who is paying attention. The fact that it hasn't been fixed and seems to be getting worse tells me it's coming from the top.
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I have said this before, but much of the pushback I see here seems mostly to do with communication style. When the verbiage comes out swinging, the poster shouldn't be surprised when swings come back. A post of "Tesla continues to screw up! My display needs replaced after everything I've dealt with!" isn't equal to "I'm really frustrated. After the problems I had last week, I just had my display burn out." One will get pushback, one will get sympathy.
It's no different than communicating in person.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Fire Musk?
I subscribe to two philosophies:
1. Never assume those in positions of power know what they are doing; and
2. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The fact that Tesla made it this far is mind boggling really. Expecting them to have no problems, and constantly harping on them when they do, as if the test is perfection rather than what can reasonably be expected of a new automaker using new technology, is where my problems arise with a number of folks constantly bashing them.
That's not to say we shouldn't hold Tesla's feet to the flame where there's room for improvement, and we all know there's lot of room there, but rather perspective is called for, at least in my view.
I am about to drive to my lakehouse and stop at a supercharger half way. I really look forward to the drive, going to the Blue Moose coffee house while supercharging, getting to my lakehouse and plugging into my 80 amp HPWC, then driving home tomorrow. Before I got my car, the drive was getting old. Now it never does and I don't even have AP.
So yes, I probably cut Tesla too much slack (even though I do criticize them) but that's because I just can't bring myself to be a constant basher like some folks. Tesla has given me too much enjoyment to do that. Plus, life's far too short to be a "glass half full" person.
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"So yes, I probably cut Tesla too much slack ..." >> THANK YOU.
" ... constant basher like some folks... " >> My intention is not to "bash" Tesla..
I'm only pointing out where they need to improve.
Two very different things.
I'm sure many parents are the same way w/ their children, and coaches w/ their players...
"...Expecting them to have no problems,..." >> Not my intention to give you that impression.
Where I get frustrated w/ Tesla is when they execute the EASY things VERY BADLY!
* deliver faulty cars w/o proper inspection
* return cars from service w/ additional damage
* service personnel LIE and tell you they've fully inspected your car and everything is A-OK, when they CLEARLY DID NOT.
* require customers to go through "20" hoops to get a service appointment
* give out filthy loaner cars.. again and again...
* make you feel helpless and at the mercy of a local service manager(s).
* Take 2 weeks to a month to fix something that should've taken 24 to 48 hours.
(this is my experience in 2017 ---- your experience may be different)
.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
That doesn't make it right. I have three children, one in university and the next one is off too come Sept so not really children anymore but all three are really good kids. I was (am) big on discipline. But I'd never constantly criticize any of them. That's a recipe for disaster when it comes to raising kids.
3Victoria
Active Member
My problem with the OP's criticisms is that they take their experience and generalize it to all. That is a self-centic viewpoint, and they don't appear to realize that many others have had good and excellent experiences, but do not go on about them for 12 pages. Tell us about poor experiences, but realise they may be the everyman experience.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
In one sentence: Tesla needs a COO/President.
I dunno, the title seems pretty clear when he says "I" I Enjoy The Car, I Really Dislike Tesla The Car Company
NikeWings
Active Member
.
Did you use the opportunity to share your analysis of corporate operations with Elon and executive staff?
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Did you read beyond the thread title? The first post clearly generalizes to what your experience will be and what you should expect.
Yes I did. The post where he uses the word "I" a lot, and when he generalizes, he uses things like "you may or may not".
He ends with "I seriously think I should've bought a different "car company"
I am not sure how anyone would be confused that he is speaking for everyone unless they are overly sensitive to an owner's critical view.
"(this is my experience in 2017 ---- your experience may be different)"
My experience has been pretty close to yours. I've endured many of the same issues you have.
There's certainly some validity to your comments, but be careful what you wish for. The reality is that a company, like a person, is what they are and, to some degree, you take the good with the bad. Without Musk, Tesla would not have gotten to where they are. He's a Jobsian character that demands an incredible lot (of himself and others) is somewhat chaotic and creates an incredible mess in his wake. But that's what's been needed to get the company to where it is. If you think that Barra or Ghosn could have done what Musk's done, then you don't have an appreciation for what Tesla has accomplished.
One think I've learned, personally, is that companies take a time to settle down and it's impossible to rush the process. You simply cannot hire a pile of new people and expect the processes and systems to work. There's a Darwinian process at play that weeds out the bad players, lets the good people find their niche, and creates the links and processes that let the parts of a large organization work with each other effectively. Tesla is in the middle of that process. And until the organization stabilizes, it requires an incredible lot of "direct from the top" intervention that wouldn't be required in an older company.
Yes there are problems. Yes, Elon has to learn; the whole organization has to learn. And yes, customers are dealing with the fallout of a bunch of their internal failings. But, with human beings being the limited creatures that they are, I think that they are doing pretty damn well. I fully support pressuring them do to better and not glossing over the failings. With all of the chaos, severe pressure is likely the only way to encourage improvement. But faulting Elon is a bit like faulting Bolt for not running a tenth faster. Musk is a rare individual and there are damn few on the planet that could have accomplished anything remotely similar. And I don't think the organization is yet at the point where it can be turned over to the GM-ish bureaucrats. It would be the death of the company.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Let's review:
That's a lot of "you"s to me. If he's not telling the reader what to expect, then I don't know what he's saying at all. The "may or may not" part doesn't change that one bit, or turn into generalizing, whatever you mean by that. We all know exactly what we are being told in this post.
Bonnie never said @SocalMS is "speaking for everyone" nor is she confused on that issue. She said:
But you rely on the "may or may not" to say what he is saying is not really what he is saying, he's just generalizing, right? If so, how can you say :
What issues? It's "may or may not".
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
The most substantial similarity between Musk and Jobs is the ability to project a "Reality Distortion Field", which is a shorthand way of saying they could sell a vision and convince employees that the seemingly impossible vision is in fact possible. Both men have engaged in the same kind of grandiose statement making that inspired awe in some and contempt from others.
The underlying thought process of the two men are very different though. At the core of Musk's thinking is physics: what is possible in terms of mechanical and electrical aspects. Jobs' though process seems to have been driven primarily by an artistic desire to build a seemless and beautiful user experience in his products.
I recommend both Ashlee Vance's biography of Elon Musk, as well as Walter Isaacson's bio of Steve Jobs. Jobs was definitely the more emotionally unstable person, and often exhibited unusually divisive cruelty in his younger years. During the development of the original Mac, Jobs picked out certain Apple employees to work in a special building, and told other workers that they were basically horrible and unworthy. Antics like this got him exiled from Apple for around a decade. While Musk can be coldly analytical in disposing of employees, he doesn't seem to exhibit the same level of vindictiveness that Jobs exhibited.
I've read both and I agree. To the extent that "Jobsian" is not fully defined, I meant that he's a larger than life character, brilliant, blind to obstacles, perhaps a little insane and capable of building a semi-religious fervor around their personal brand.
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