I live in a condo. The main breaker is only 70A. Now what? [Resolved]

[Sophias_dad]

OP here again. Quick HVAC update now that the weather is warming up: I went with a Bryant Evolution (aka Carrier Infinity) variable rate system with a 19-SEER rating. The increased efficiency, compressor soft-start (no DCC tripping) and low noise were they key factors in my decision. Also, Bryant seemed to be a better overall value compared to Lennox and Trane. It's very efficient (duh): Actual consumption is less than half of what the EV charger uses, even though the outdoor unit is on a same-sized circuit (30A). SCE's website shows about ~2.5kWh whole-home consumption over a 1-hour period right after it's turned on (and is running at max output), and this falls once target temp is reached and the system drops down to a lower stage. Fairly impressive for a 3-ton capacity system.

Yep... I found something similar. At the time of choosing my Carrier Greenspeed heat pump instead of a single-or-dual stage AC, it was a no-brainer to get the much more efficient Greenspeed for a couple thousand more that made me eligible for a significant rebate, backup heat during winter, and lower cooling/heating costs. The first few years I used it for a good portion of heating for the house as well, but with the recent oil/electricity price inversion I have it set to not provide much heat.

Replaced four window AC units that did their job for individual rooms with a single central 3-ton AC unit that takes care of the entire house for maybe half the electricity. No more schlepping window units to/from the attic every year, either!

 

[andy92782]

Can't believe I read all 15 pages. What a journey and glad you stuck it out. I was going to mention that if there is something that actually supported by Homekit then to take a look at Homebridge. I have it currently running on a gen1 raspberry pi and have my Honeywell wifi thermostat, myQ garage door opener and Tesla all accessible via Homekit.

Otherwise congrats on your solution (and new AC unit).

There's a couple open source projects that *kind of* add Smarthome functionality to the Bryant Evolution/Carrier Infinity thermostats. It requires running a Raspberry Pi and/or other Linux server along with Home Assistant. It's pretty buggy, though. It breaks the native Bryant smartphone app interface. I've given up on it for now. Cool air on the cheap will have to do

 

[voip-ninja]

OP here again. Quick HVAC update now that the weather is warming up: I went with a Bryant Evolution (aka Carrier Infinity) variable rate system with a 19-SEER rating. The increased efficiency, compressor soft-start (no DCC tripping) and low noise were they key factors in my decision. Also, Bryant seemed to be a better overall value compared to Lennox and Trane. It's very efficient (duh): Actual consumption is less than half of what the EV charger uses, even though the outdoor unit is on a same-sized circuit (30A). SCE's website shows about ~2.5kWh whole-home consumption over a 1-hour period right after it's turned on (and is running at max output), and this falls once target temp is reached and the system drops down to a lower stage. Fairly impressive for a 3-ton capacity system.

Personally I've enjoyed that you've kept this thread going with the additional info.

My furnace/AC is approaching 15 years of age and I am considering a proactive replacement sometime in the next few years. Since I'm in Colorado the system will get a workout year round as we can easily swing from weeks of below freezing temps to weeks of broiling temps as early as late May.

I have used the same HVAC guy for almost a decade. He's very knowledgeable and once he figured out I'm not a "dumb homeowner" he has even done things like troubleshoot problems over the phone and then tell me what part I need and once went so far as to set things up so I could pick up a part I needed at a local 'contractor only' store.

He absolutely hates the newer high efficiency systems (both heating and cooling) and says they are unreliable garbage and any energy savings will be eaten up in both higher up-front and installation cost as well as much higher repair costs over time. It will be an interesting conversation with him when I finally go about getting him to bid out a new system for us.

 

[Rocky_H]

My furnace/AC is approaching 15 years of age and I am considering a proactive replacement sometime in the next few years. Since I'm in Colorado the system will get a workout year round as we can easily swing from weeks of below freezing temps to weeks of broiling temps as early as late May.

We replaced our A/C a couple years ago and went with a combo A/C and heat pump unit. We have a lot of the year that we're doing some low level heating when the outside temperature is in the 40's or 50's, so a more efficient heat pump can easily handle that without it having to resort to our gas furnace. And with us having solar panels that generate over 70% of our electricity for the year, shifting some of that heating to electric made pretty good sense too.

 

[andy92782]

He absolutely hates the newer high efficiency systems (both heating and cooling) and says they are unreliable garbage and any energy savings will be eaten up in both higher up-front and installation cost as well as much higher repair costs over time. It will be an interesting conversation with him when I finally go about getting him to bid out a new system for us.

OP here. Glad you like my updates. I'm not under any illusion about the expected lifetime and reliability of the new system I just bought. It's way more complex. I don't expect it to last 30 years like the system it replaced. Not that I expect to be living here 30 years from now...

I went with a standard gas furnace and not a heat pump. If I had to do it over again I would have gone heat pump. The reason is because newer furnaces use something called an induction fan to forcibly exhaust the gas burners. The induction fan is *extremely* noisy, and the sound and vibration from its operation couples into the framing of the house and makes it sound like you're walking around in a giant subwoofer enclosure. It might be specific to the Bryant/Carrier brand.

 

[Krash]

I have a couple natural gas furnaces with central air condensers and am holding out for Dandelion Air heat pumps. Seems like dandelion is so much cheaper on ground loop installation. But last time I checked they were only installing on the US East coast.

 

[voip-ninja]

Personally I've enjoyed that you've kept this thread going with the additional info.

My furnace/AC is approaching 15 years of age and I am considering a proactive replacement sometime in the next few years. Since I'm in Colorado the system will get a workout year round as we can easily swing from weeks of below freezing temps to weeks of broiling temps as early as late May.

I have used the same HVAC guy for almost a decade. He's very knowledgeable and once he figured out I'm not a "dumb homeowner" he has even done things like troubleshoot problems over the phone and then tell me what part I need and once went so far as to set things up so I could pick up a part I needed at a local 'contractor only' store.

He absolutely hates the newer high efficiency systems (both heating and cooling) and says they are unreliable garbage and any energy savings will be eaten up in both higher up-front and installation cost as well as much higher repair costs over time. It will be an interesting conversation with him when I finally go about getting him to bid out a new system for us.

I have 7kw of solar but we utilize 100% of it now that we have two kids. I'm not sure if the heat pump option makes sense, I would have to investigate it quite a bit more.

 

[voip-ninja]

OP here. Glad you like my updates. I'm not under any illusion about the expected lifetime and reliability of the new system I just bought. It's way more complex. I don't expect it to last 30 years like the system it replaced. Not that I expect to be living here 30 years from now...

I went with a standard gas furnace and not a heat pump. If I had to do it over again I would have gone heat pump. The reason is because newer furnaces use something called an induction fan to forcibly exhaust the gas burners. The induction fan is *extremely* noisy, and the sound and vibration from its operation couples into the framing of the house and makes it sound like you're walking around in a giant subwoofer enclosure. It might be specific to the Bryant/Carrier brand.

The system we have has an induction fan, it is noisy but it sits in the basement and since it's a large house we don't really hear it much. Heat pumps sound interesting though so I will probably investigate them. Current furnace is a 90% efficient one so it's not terrible but certainly the new ones are quite a lot more efficient. AC though is like a 6 SEER unit so it's pulling a TON of juice to operate in the summer months and replacing that would potentially get our solar back into providing us a small surplus in the summer.

 

[Mrbrock]

If you like the inverter compressor/heat pumps but don’t want to do mini split, Mr Cool has an inverter compressor heat pump that connects to a standard vertical/horizontal air handler and allows any aftermarket thermostat to control it. They are also DIY so everything comes precharged and you don’t need special tools to install. A 3 ton unit is $2600 plus the line set at $10-$15/ft. Huge savings over having an HVAC company install a standard AC unit. Just Google Mr Cool Universal Central Heat Pump Split System and mr cool precharged lineset.

I am planning on doing that this summer along with new roof, solar, and maybe Powerwalls.

 

[RDavis9]

Where did you find the 66-75A? Maybe post a picture of your panel....

1) The DCC is a last resort, IMHO. Its expensive to buy and install, and then you need to worry about when one or the other device is gonna get shut off.

2) I wouldn't be so sure that you can just upgrade the main breaker like that.. the building might be near its limit. Also, you'd probably have to pass the 100+amp through the subpanel(with an 80 amp breaker sending much of the capacity up to your condo). I'd probably go this route.

3) This is much like 2, but you need some pretty hefty wire to get upstairs and back down. Don't forget the wire and breaker should be oversized by 25% from what you expect the continuous EV load to be(well, at least the line coming back down), the line going up should still be somewhat oversized because a non-trivial percentage of its load is expected to be continuous.

4) I'd be interested in why you think 15A is too much for your current panel. Unless you have an electric stove and AC and clothes dryer, I'd think your other loads would be manageable.

5) I don't know the costs involved in a new meter.

Just FYI, I have a DCC-9, in the box, never used (I moved from the condo before needing it) that I will sell for $500. Not that expensive to install. Often the cable run is more.

 

[Akikiki]

C’mon. Plan ahead!

Seriously though, yes ... it’s a great power backup. Once Netflix is available, the whole family can sit in the car to stay cool and be entertained on a hot night with no AC inside.

I dunno know. There is something that is simply too much of a good thing. For instance, ya don't know a drowning man yelling for a rope, both ends.

 

[mswlogo]

See if you can squeak in a 20A 230V circuit.
If not, go for 120V 20A

Without EV I rarely exceed 20% capacity of my 100A panel. All gas appliances except AC.

 

[ashtin2272]

Hey all,

New guy here. I take delivery of my Model 3 in about a week.

I live in an attached townhome. I have my own, private attached two car garage. I was gearing up to have a NEMA 14-50 outlet installed but unfortunately I discovered the main breaker feeding my unit is only 70A. Other than a central HVAC system (240V/30A for the compressor), all the appliances are gas and the remaining breakers are the usual assortment of 15A and 20A circuits for lights/plugs, garbage disposal, dishwasher, forced air unit, etc. What is the largest circuit that can be added to my unit's panel given the 70A maximum? 240V/30A? 240V/20A? Nothing at all? Am I screwed?

The main breaker is located on a shared panel on the exterior of the building. My own unit has its own sub-panel located in the garage just a few feed away from where I was hoping to have the 240V outlet installed. I'm assuming at this point it would take an act of God to upgrade the main breaker and/or panel plus rewire the unit to bring larger wire into my garage (HOA approvals, building codes, whatever...).

I'm in the process of getting quotes from electricians but trying to get an idea first...

Thanks!


(moderator note: As OP of this thread requested, edited title to show issue has been resolved, and including a link to post#208 which has the final resolution, here: I live in a condo. The main breaker is only 70A. Now what? [Resolved] )

Hi Andy! I am also a SoCal resident and in the same exact situation as you were. I can’t find an electrician that is familiar with the DCC EV management system l, so can you possibly refer me to the electrician who did your install?

 

[andy92782]

Hi Andy! I am also a SoCal resident and in the same exact situation as you were. I can’t find an electrician that is familiar with the DCC EV management system l, so can you possibly refer me to the electrician who did your install?

PM sent.

 

[andy92782]

OP here. Nothing new to report on the DCC/charger front. Everything is still working perfectly.

Regarding the community I live in: Over three years after I began this ordeal my HOA is finally getting around to creating an EV charging policy. They recently sent out a policy proposal for members to review and provide feedback. The policy they provided is pretty much all legal boilerplate stuff and contains zero information regarding the technical aspects and requirements of our homes, particularly the situation with the 70A main breakers. They want all homeowners to:

1) Submit plans to and get approval from the "Architectural Review Committee", even though all chargers will be installed in owners' private garages
2) Require all owners to take out a $1M liability insurance policy naming the HOA as an additional insured, plus provide annual proof of coverage. All future owners of the property must also do the same or else the charger must be removed
3) Complete a covenant agreement that must be notarized and recorded with the county

The icing on the cake is the HOA's charger application form. It offers "DIRECT CURRENT" as an available charger type. C'mon, guys.. at least make a tiny effort to research the technical aspects of the installation before drafting a "policy".

I would love to tell them they're all idiots via the feedback form they provided but at this point I don't want to get in their crosshairs. At least there's some potential good news: The board member election is imminent and we're very likely to get a new board member who happens to be a Model Y owner.

 

[davewill]

OP here. Nothing new to report on the DCC/charger front. Everything is still working perfectly.

Regarding the community I live in: Over three years after I began this ordeal my HOA is finally getting around to creating an EV charging policy. They recently sent out a policy proposal for members to review and provide feedback. The policy they provided is pretty much all legal boilerplate stuff and contains zero information regarding the technical aspects and requirements of our homes, particularly the situation with the 70A main breakers. They want all homeowners to:

1) Submit plans to and get approval from the "Architectural Review Committee", even though all chargers will be installed in owners' private garages
2) Require all owners to take out a $1M liability insurance policy naming the HOA as an additional insured, plus provide annual proof of coverage. All future owners of the property must also do the same or else the charger must be removed
3) Complete a covenant agreement that must be notarized and recorded with the county

The icing on the cake is the HOA's charger application form. It offers "DIRECT CURRENT" as an available charger type. C'mon, guys.. at least make a tiny effort to research the technical aspects of the installation before drafting a "policy".

I would love to tell them they're all idiots via the feedback form they provided but at this point I don't want to get in their crosshairs. At least there's some potential good news: The board member election is imminent and we're very likely to get a new board member who happens to be a Model Y owner.

Requiring insurance is mentioned right in the CA right to charge law, and is not a surprise. I would do the same if I were on the board. Remember, it's the association that's on the hook if a fire damages a bunch of units. Luckily, a $1M liability rider on a homeowner's policy is usually not too expensive.

The approval from the committee is also standard stuff, and only becomes a problem if they start rejecting applications for ridiculous reasons.

Finally, I have to say I wouldn't be too wild about giving technical advice to individual homeowners in this situation. Better to say nothing than the wrong thing. Not too remarkable, all in all.

 

[andy92782]

Requiring insurance is mentioned right in the CA right to charge law, and is not a surprise. I would do the same if I were on the board. Remember, it's the association that's on the hook if a fire damages a bunch of units. Luckily, a $1M liability rider on a homeowner's policy is usually not too expensive.

The approval from the committee is also standard stuff, and only becomes a problem if they start rejecting applications for ridiculous reasons.

Finally, I have to say I wouldn't be too wild about giving technical advice to individual homeowners in this situation. Better to say nothing than the wrong thing. Not too remarkable, all in all.

Requiring approval is questionable in the first place, especially if all the work is done in an owner's private garage and no common areas are affected. Is the conduit that feeds the subpanel in a private garage considered common property? The courts would probably have to figure it out.

 

[davewill]

Requiring approval is questionable in the first place, especially if all the work is done in an owner's private garage and no common areas are affected. Is the conduit that feeds the subpanel in a private garage considered common property? The courts would probably have to figure it out.

It shouldn't take a court, it should be spelled out in the convenants for the development. When asking questions like this, it's always helpful to turn the question around. Who would pay if somethig went wrong with your electric service? In a townhouse kind of scenario, it might be the individual homeowner, but in a multi-story condo building it would probably be the association.

The board is responsible for more than common infrastructure, they are also responsible for anything that might affect other owners. For example, one of my EVSEs makes a loud clunk when the contactors open and close. If it were mounted on a wall that was common with a neighbor's living space, it would possibly disturb them. Also, some people do really weird stuff (likely things I can't even imagine). Requiring approval gives the HOA a chance at least try to head things off.

When I lived in a condo, I had a problem with my downstairs neighbor who cooked with a TON of garlic. The smell was invading my unit. It was the association who came to the rescue and recaulked around the plumbing in both of our bathrooms and stopped the problem (I'd have happily done it, but I was young and didn't know what the problem was).

The CA law says they can't enforce unreasonable restrictions, but that's a tough fight to have. Hopefully, they won't be unreasonable.

 

[Leaf_to_M3]

Requiring insurance is mentioned right in the CA right to charge law, and is not a surprise. I would do the same if I were on the board. Remember, it's the association that's on the hook if a fire damages a bunch of units. Luckily, a $1M liability rider on a homeowner's policy is usually not too expensive.

The approval from the committee is also standard stuff, and only becomes a problem if they start rejecting applications for ridiculous reasons.

Finally, I have to say I wouldn't be too wild about giving technical advice to individual homeowners in this situation. Better to say nothing than the wrong thing. Not too remarkable, all in all.

The insurance requirement was (thankfully) taken out in SB 638 in 2019.

 

[andy92782]

The insurance requirement was (thankfully) taken out in SB 638 in 2019.

Interesting find, thanks for posting. The law seems to be focused on tenants/lessees but wouldn't this also apply to condominium owners? Also, when they say:

(i) Notwithstanding subdivision (h), no insurance shall be required of a lessee installing an electric vehicle charging station if both of the following are satisfied:
(1) The electric vehicle charging station has been certified by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory that is approved by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration of the United States Department of Labor.
(2) The electric vehicle charging station and any associated alterations to the dwelling’s electrical system are performed by a licensed electrician.

Does this mean UL-approved equipment (i.e., the DCC and the Tesla wall connector) qualify?