Salivating? Hardly. I was just pointing out that the research on social norming seems to imply it would be a stronger incentive than anonymous background charges on a credit card. Others were suggesting the opposite.
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Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee
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Perhaps. I do get your point regarding that subconversation, sure.
Still, what an awful idea if it was anything other than a charge line on an invoice at the Service Center.
I mean, the alternatives in this are not only more or less Supercharging idle minutes caused. Third alternative is less Supercharging at all and the fourth is is less Teslas.
I do think I covered both. I understand that charging time is unpredictable, and depends on things like stall pairing . It's something we're already aware of. What I did try to do, was post from the perspective of someone waiting, not someone charging, as the vast majority of posts on the matter seem to do. That charging times are not linear and cannot be planned for, is something every one of us who's used SCs knows. But why would someone waiting in line with impatient 2/4-legged passengers care ? They're all still biased towards wanting you out of the way, regardless of circumstances.
I also do not claim that charging after eating is practical. Many factors about EV ownership are not 'practical' yet. Having to route ourselves through SC-populated routes, for example. And yet it's the tradeoff we made while picking a Tesla, and is therefore something worth doing even if it's somewhat impractical, while better options are devised. One could be reasonable - charge if the SC looks like it has space to spare, and avoid using it until you can be there to take the car away on time if it looks heavily utilized, for example. I'm certain I'm not the only owner who already does this, either.
Personally, I think just eliminating all of the local 'park and ride' jerks and others involved in such gross misuse, will significantly improve things, at least for the short to medium term. I have no idea what'll happen when the M3s are out in force. But certain impractical aspects will not really go away until battery range is a little greater, and charging rate improved from the already industry-leading rate from the SCs.
I get the perspective and it is fair enough. I am not sure improving the "get out of the way" timing will help so dramatically, as the big bulk is still that charge, but we shall see if it does help. None of us know, of course, we are all speculating.
Curbing parking abusers would have happened without a 5 minute rule...That said, EV ownership not being practical and this being a tradeoff we made while picking a Tesla, I would express my concern over that line of thinking. Sure, a lot of us picked Tesla as early adopters and so on...
But one of the reasons we are rooting for Tesla is that they made a serious effort to make EV mainstream. Tesla did so many things right: no weirdmobiles, big batteries for range, excellent storage and interior capacity (esp. Model S), great performance and that super simple, free to use, all you can eat Supercharging usually near conveniences like restaurants...
These are great EV obstale removers. Now with these changes, the Superchager network is taking steps backwards. I guess Tesla is tasting a bit of success, but there is still a long way from cracking the mainstream.
And that includes people who are not as prepared to choose an impractical, tradeoff-ridden car. Luring them in and keeping them happy takes a bit more effort than those guys who are downright giddy to watch their phone for 30 minutes straight during lunch and then run 15 minutes in the rain to move their Supercharged car...
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AnxietyRanger: I enjoyed reading that post of yours. Many thanks
I have to disagree with the perspective that "Now with these changes, the Superchager network is taking steps backwards." I think it's a necessary forward step. It's neither perfect not sufficient, but still necessary, particularly with the more improved definition of only imposing the fee at a full SC.
I have to disagree with the perspective that "Now with these changes, the Superchager network is taking steps backwards." I think it's a necessary forward step. It's neither perfect not sufficient, but still necessary, particularly with the more improved definition of only imposing the fee at a full SC.
AnxietyRanger: I enjoyed reading that post of yours. Many thanks
I have to disagree with the perspective that "Now with these changes, the Superchager network is taking steps backwards." I think it's a necessary forward step. It's neither perfect not sufficient, but still necessary, particularly with the more improved definition of only imposing the fee at a full SC.
Whilst it is possible (and of course perfectly allright) we still disagree, I feel the need to make one more clarification: I think Supercharger network is taking steps back regarding the layperson perspective that won't be so willing to deal with such hassles as following a mobile app to know when to move the car... That's the going backward part IMO. It used to be SO simple.
The rule changes may of course have other benefits, such as curbing abuse or lessening congestion, that is more arguable - we shall see if so...
FYI, to answer the question about the effect this has had, I posted that question on the Fountain Valley thread and the response, by 1 person, was no. I would like to see a few others chime in, and will post the same question on the Burbank and SJC threads.
callmesam
Member
I think this is a temporary blip. Every car being built today is capable of moving itself on public property. Soon, nobody will track the app. Just set the car to vacate the Supercharger when full. There are fewer than 100,000 total cars built by Tesla INCAPABLE of this future time saver.
So . . . Big picture . . . This is short term helpful, long term nothing-burger.
#DriveFree
Maybe, maybe, we shall see what the short-term reaction is, of course.
I agree eventually automatics will help. But that will not only take the proliferation of those cars, finishing of the software, maturing of the regulations, but also replacement of all those Superchargers with automated snakes or whatnot...
If these rules are an issue for the average person to comply with, there is still plenty of time for this to become an issue. Now, if I'm wrong and most people are happy to check their phone intently while charging, maybe it's all for the better. We shall see.
I agree eventually automatics will help. But that will not only take the proliferation of those cars, finishing of the software, maturing of the regulations, but also replacement of all those Superchargers with automated snakes or whatnot...
If these rules are an issue for the average person to comply with, there is still plenty of time for this to become an issue. Now, if I'm wrong and most people are happy to check their phone intently while charging, maybe it's all for the better. We shall see.
I'm just glad I own a smart watch, and get notifications on my wrist. No need to dig the phone out of the purse and check the status - I should get the "almost complete" message on my watch.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I've posted a poll to gather input on the availability of SC sites:
Has anybody noticed availability improvements at SCs?
Jlwine
Member
I completely agree! I have only used a supercharger three times, never have more than half the stalls been in use. Twice, I sat in the car and waited, once I walked a half a mile or so to a Steak_and_Shake and the car sat idle for probably 15 minutes after fully charging. There was no one else at the charging station. I would and will be furious if under similar circumstances I am charged a dime for leaving my car longer than five minutes in an empty charging station. My complaint is more in principle than in practicality because as I said I rarely use a super charger. Nevertheless, I resent being treated as a child, unable to be trusted to behave courteously on my own. How about Tesla goes after the repeat offenders in high traffic stations, and treat the other 95% of their customers as the responsible owners that they are.
I am very surprised this ex post facto change of use policy got past Tesla legal department, or perhaps Musk just ignored them. I am certain someone will sue, and would not be surprised to see a class action lawsuit.
My problem with smartwatches is (I own a few too) that I would actually need a Supercharger to charge them, because they are always out of charge, more so than my Tesla.
Thank you!
@Jlwine, How do you propose Tesla "go after" repeat offenders, if there is no policy that cars need to be moved when charging is finished? When they leave their car there for hours, what offense have they committed (other than a moral one), unless Tesla has a policy against it and a penalty for doing so?
I do agree with you on the point that additional complexity of usage is not helpful. There's a huge degree of 'it just works' to Tesla's benefit compared to every other EV out there today. The reduction in impracticality and usage compromises vs other choices, is why Tesla is such a big deal, and why we all bought in on it. And yes, in that regard 'moar rulez' is a backward step, even if action itself was necessary.
IMHO, the paradigm of the supercharger is at a crossroads now. The fleet is too large for the earlier 'free unlimited supercharging' to work, and likewise, cannot absorb the impact of the handful of bad apples misusing it. The cascading effect of such actions are far too annoying to the rising user base.
As you mention, we'd all like to make EV adoption hassle free to ICE users (of which I was one until this summer), as well as the rest ofthe community. The current situation is effectively us being collectively victims of the success Tesla has accomplished when it comes to growing sales.
Soon Tesla will need to take a an even harder look at the 'superchargers are unlimited usage for long distance commuting' paradigm. One of those shoes has already dropped starting 2017 . The long distance shoe will drop as more city dwellers get on board and need quick charging within cities. Ideally ~80% charging would be a 15 minute paid-for-use deal at a range of public outlets in cities and freeways. But that sort of initiative has only just begun through government impetus.
I am not sure that is the best idea at all myself, but one concept that could work:
Tesla could implement a policy of how long after a charge completion it is reasonable to stay at the charger, before it becomes parking, collect the data, but then only address repeat offenders, not those who are being reasonably normal about stuff. They already sent out letters about local Supercharging, so the ability to filter out data is there.
Now, a letter alone of course is not sufficient for all, they could for example block such cars from Superchargers for a period...
There are of course many ways to go about these things. Personally I think a no-nonsense minute charge for everything (charging included) could be the simplest.
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Thats why I own a Pebble. I can charge it for 15 minutes in the morning while I get ready and its good for two days.
Too bad they are being killed by fitbit
Jlwine
Member
In escalating steps. First step after identifying the sub-set of users who repeatedly abuse the situation should be a warning. If after a warning they continue--then directly targeting those offenders, not "punish the whole class" for the bad behavior of the small minority. At least this way they could assert that they did their due diligence in trying to resolve the problem before turning it into what a litigant or a class could certainly claim was just a way for them to add a new revenue stream.
Just about everyone agrees that in certain parts of the country with high demand stations that this is an issue that needs to be addressed. I just believe Tesla took the "easy way out" rather than just targeting the offenders.
Yesterday, today and tomorrow, Tesla knew/knows/will know who is really abusing, and what waiting lines at Superchargers such abusers are really creating. Tesla can monitor all of that information: people who charge locally where they could very well charge at home; people who leave their car hours at a Supercharger, people who charge to 100% while a 60% charge would be sufficient to get them to their next destination ànd there are eight other Tesla's waiting to charge, etc. Tesla knows all of this already, always (including the waiting lines at Superchargers). So Tesla knows on which targets it should focus, in terms of abuse.
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