Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee

[Az_Rael]

@JRMW:

It depends on what the goal really is. If the goal is to curb abuse - as they say - it does not make a difference if people come with a 5 minute or 35 minute grace. Some delay past the actual charging completion is a normal part pf EV charging due to the long and unpredictable nature of it. It is not abuse.

Now, if the real reason is Tesla has built too little capacity and thus needs to try and keep the line moving inhumanely fast, motivations may be different. But this has nothing to do with abuse and everything to do with insufficient capacity...

People are already reporting fewer overnight parkers at the San Diego SC, so it is certainly curbing some abuse of the network.

 

[Jlwine]

This right here is the reality. I think the number of times I have let my car sit for longer than charging took is about two. And both times were later at night while we stopped and had dinner on a road trip. Both times we would have avoided the new charge as we were the only car in the location. (Pretty sure I saw EM say they would adjust this based on capacity of the location)

Here is what Musk initially said:

And here is what he say's now:

The latter seems much more reasoned.

 

[KJD]

It depends on what the goal really is. If the goal is to curb abuse - as they say - it does not make a difference if people come with a 5 minute or 35 minute grace. Some delay past the actual charging completion is a normal part pf EV charging due to the long and unpredictable nature of it. It is not abuse.
Now, if the real reason is Tesla has built too little capacity and thus needs to try and keep the line moving inhumanely fast, motivations may be different. But this has nothing to do with abuse and everything to do with insufficient capacity...

We are now up to 35 pages of the same thing over and over again. I am so sick of you complaining about the "unpredictable" nature of the charging times.

I find the charging to be very predictable based on State of Charge when I pull into the charge station. The phone app is just a backup to fine tune my own estimate based on experience.

Many many others on this forum seem to easily manage this task, but you seem to have a problem with it. Why is that anyhow, is 3 button presses too much effort for you ?

As for Tesla not building enough capacity, give me a break. Maybe you should buy a LEAF and try using the CHAdeMO network and then you will see what a failed system is really like. Their network is horrible.

No other auto company has done more to build EV chargers than Tesla. Go to a Chevy dealer and ask them for a map of the fast chargers they have built.

 

[KJD]

That some abusers might be "punished" is a nice side effect.

That some non abusers are inconvenienced is a negative side effect.

I personally think people are overreacting to the fine. It's an extremely minor nuisance. Yes, it is a nuisance. But getting a $6 fine once in a blue moon is hardly life changing.

Yes Thank you for saying this. I agree with this 100%.

Well over 90% of my charging is at home in my garage. The only time I use the super charger network is on out of town adventures.

A full day of driving might include 4 or 5 charge stations. We try and stay at hotels with destination charging so that makes the last stop a non issue. During the day we will have several short stops and one longer stop for lunch, preferable within walking distance of a charger. I have never found it be a burden to return to the car and move it when charging is complete. Most of the time we are done with our lunch break and the car is still charging, but it has MORE than enough juice to make our next stop.

 

[4SUPER9]

Tesla would this build any timing algorithm in such a way to get people back to their cars in time

If estimated charging time was 25 min to 55 minutes, it would tell the customer 25 minutes.

Then customer would be upset when they return to find their car only partially charged.

They certainly won't tell customer the 55 minute figure. This defeats the entire purpose, which is to get the queue moving faster.

Tesla does not have an algorithm that gives such a range. It only determines one estimate, which is pretty accurate most of the time. Sometimes, there is a major change of circumstances, which is what @AnxietyRanger was speaking towards.

@JRMW
Now, if the real reason is Tesla has built too little capacity and thus needs to try and keep the line moving inhumanely fast, motivations may be different. But this has nothing to do with abuse and everything to do with insufficient capacity...

Tesla has built out too little capacity. You are correct. "Nothing to do with abuse" is definitely wrong. SJC had no wait reported, an amazing situation in of it self, and all the cars parked overnight at San Diego where gone. Arriving early AM to find a bunch of cars plugged in, not sure which are charging, so you take a chance that you are getting a paired stall, and if you do, have to move your car...

We are now up to 35 pages of the same thing over and over again. I am so sick of you complaining about the "unpredictable" nature of the charging times.
...
Many many others on this forum seem to easily manage this task, but you seem to have a problem with it. Why is that anyhow, is 3 button presses too much effort for you ?

As for Tesla not building enough capacity, give me a break. Maybe you should buy a LEAF and try using the CHAdeMO network and then you will see what a failed system is really like. Their network is horrible.

No other auto company has done more to build EV chargers than Tesla. Go to a Chevy dealer and ask them for a map of the fast chargers they have built.

I agree with you about how wonderful a job Tesla has done about building this network out. I will also say they flailed heavily in So Cal where there was only 1 Supercharger built in the busiest corridor in the country. That was years ago, and was full instantly, and overcrowded since. They only recently added a couple others, but way too late in the game, and far to insufficient.

As for as your attack on @AnxietyRanger , I feel a need to defend him this time. Reading his posts, he would prefer something else, and is addressing a discovered flaw. Minor flaw. I agree with you. I think overall he is fairly accepting of this new Tesla policy as a trial, and just debating and discussing alternatives and possible improvements as a matter of intrigue and learning.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

People are already reporting fewer overnight parkers at the San Diego SC, so it is certainly curbing some abuse of the network.

Nice. But that has of course nothing to do with a 5 minute policy.

I have no issue with idle charges. But a 5 minute policy has nothing to do with abuse.

Those overnighters would have been gone with a predictive grace or a 30 min grace too.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@4SUPER9 thank you for the post. Agreed.

"Nothing to do with abuse" is definitely wrong.

That's not how I meant it, though. My point is IMO a 5 min grace has got nothing to do with abuse. Abusers would be gone with a more reasonable grace too.

Idle charges in general of course (also) have to do with abuse. But a 5 min grace is more about too little capacity to handle the fleet...

 

[sorka]

And here is what he say's now:

View attachment 207186
The latter seems much more reasoned.

Not sure that wording would cover those that finish charging when the stalls are empty, and then stay until the stalls are more than 50% full. i.e. an overnight charger will likely not incur fees when the finish charging at 1 am in the morning but by 7 am, the stalls are half full. Well, they weren't when charging finished, right? So maybe the policy should be that if the stalls become half full after charging finishes or become half full while you're still plugged in *after* you've finished charging, then the idle fee should kick in from the moment you originally finished charging. If not, then it will still invite overnight parking which should never be allowed.

I can see parking and staying there for an extra half hour while you finish your meal when the supercharger is mostly empty and there's little chance of it filling up in that extra time you're taking but to outright leave for hours and hours shouldn't be tolerated under any circumstances. Too much can happen during that time and an empty location can transition into having lines.

 

[ohmman]

I just want to address the "too little capacity" argument that is raised repeatedly in this thread and others like it. Building capacity isn't as easy as just doing it. Anyone who thinks it's entirely in Tesla's control is probably oversimplifying the difficulty in capacity expansion. I recognize I may be overcomplicating it as well, but here are just a few things I see impacting the infrastructure build:

• Human resources on the Supercharger team
• Contractor relationships
• Budget available (clearly impacted progress in Q3)
• Utility constraints (within the actual utility hierarchy)
• Grid constraints (supply at crucial sites, failure paths)
• Permitting issues
• Priority shuffling (since the Supercharging expense is at least somewhat billed to marketing in their accounting, it's important realize that there is more perceived value in Supercharger coverage on the nationwide map than there is on increased density a mile from an existing charger)

I'm sure I'm missing a vast number of complications, but Tesla loves being vertically integrated. This is one realm where they must rely on a lot of external forces, so assuming it's entirely in Tesla's control is relatively far from the truth.

 

[Az_Rael]

Nice. But that has of course nothing to do with a 5 minute policy.

I have no issue with idle charges. But a 5 minute policy has nothing to do with abuse.

Those overnighters would have been gone with a predictive grace or a 30 min grace too.

True. I am sure a 10-15 minute grace period would go along way towards alleviating people's complaints about the fee now. I am sure they will consider modifying the timing if enough folks complain.

 

[mspohr]

True. I am sure a 10-15 minute grace period would go along way towards alleviating people's complaints about the fee now. I am sure they will consider modifying the timing if enough folks complain.

If you're waiting for a charging spot, is it OK to sit there another 15 minutes?

 

[4SUPER9]

True. I am sure a 10-15 minute grace period would go along way towards alleviating people's complaints about the fee now. I am sure they will consider modifying the timing if enough folks complain.

This and what Anxietyranger said are valid. They could have chosen 15 minutes or even 60 minutes, and that would have addressed the most egregious of abusers. They chose 5. It could also have been 10, 7, 11 (how apropos) or whatever. They chose 5. That seemed intentional to put pressure on the busiest of superchargers. It is what it is, and let's end this circle of debate and see what happens.

 

[Cloxxki]

If SC locations come with a nice mobile jack, you can just unhook a car who's done charging, and swap for your own. Owner can find his car 5m forward from where they left it. Like valet service.
Soon cars should drive themselves off after being removed from the charger. Without the owner there or controlling the efforts.

Let's go for diner while the car is still at the gas pump, free parking baby! People can use other stalls.

 

[suraj1194]

I don't think the Supercharger network is a question of vertical integration as such. It deals with the chicken or the egg problem. No one else was going to build a charging network before EVs demonstrated their popularity, and Tesla couldn't demonstrate its worth without the network.

The SC network is therefore part of the value proposition of a Tesla, just as even a long range EV like the Bolt suddenly finds itself losing prominent supporters like Wozniak, when they do the math and realize it's just a longer range city car, but still a city car, in the absence of a well organized fast charging network in place.

SC abuse has been around for some time. It's just that it could be absorbed by the excess capacity present as built out. But increasingly, that's not the case. Even a short wait imposed by anyone for any reason at a busy SC, leaves a significantly larger number of people inconvenienced.

For example, I recently encountered a 7 car line at the Dublin SC around 2pm amidst pouring rain. Several parked cars looked unoccupied. I gave up on waiting after 2 minutes and drove it down to ~2% further out to Manteca SC, which was entirely deserted when I pulled in, and had one other car when I left.

Therefore, Tesla's actions will first be biased towards getting people to move the cars away immediately, not catching long term behavior, which does nothing for the people waiting in line right then. Punishing long term trend behavior leads them to modify it to not get caught as easily, not necessarily to stop entirely. On the other hand, a fine mounting up is an incentive to act right then and there.

 

[Cyclone]

I gave up on waiting after 2 minutes and drove it down to ~2% further out to Manteca SC, which was entirely deserted when I pulled in, and had one other car when I left.

Now imagine if Tesla would build a UI interface to the Supercharger availability so you could query it as you were getting close and just gone to Manteca directly!

 

[Xenius]

Now imagine if Tesla would build a UI interface to the Supercharger availability so you could query it as you were getting close and just gone to Manteca directly!

Thing is they have this data! It'd be awesome if the navigation software took this into account.

 

[suraj1194]

Now imagine if Tesla would build a UI interface to the Supercharger availability so you could query it as you were getting close and just gone to Manteca directly!

It's quite doable for them. There's a lot of potential for enhancements to the SC access mechanism to feed traffic appropriately depending on the trip plan in the nav.

 

[4SUPER9]

Now imagine if Tesla would build a UI interface to the Supercharger availability so you could query it as you were getting close and just gone to Manteca directly!

Thing is they have this data! It'd be awesome if the navigation software took this into account.

This is supposed to be available with 8.1 due out any day now. My guess is after the holidays.

 

[Joelc]

Remember that time when we drove ICE's and had to deal with those coin operated parking meters?
I hated it when my phone app didn't tell me that my time was running out and I got a ticket.

 

[Xenius]

This is supposed to be available with 8.1 due out any day now. My guess is after the holidays.

Oh, neat didn't realize. Just did a quick googling, do we have a list somewhere of upcoming features in 8.1 where this is listed?