Ioniq 5 vs Model Y

[Corndart]

Wonder what the TP75 is for "how many replies until a thread goes off the %$@#(* rails" here on TMC ;-)

 

[Suns_PSD]

Amazing that at 95k he hasn't needed to service the transmission or brakes, either.

Per recommended intervals I'll be doing the 1st transmission service at 100K. I already purchased the 6 quarts of Amsoil and the filter. About $100. I'll do it myself.

The rear brakes on my previous truck went to 205K miles before needing replacement. The fronts were never replaced and the truck was totaled by it's new owner at 240K miles. So no, I haven't needed brakes. My wife drives her car very aggressively and I installed rear brake pads on her jeep. $35 and an hour of time at 73K miles.

I just went to my 3rd set of tires (including the OEM set as #1) which is another point. The torque and weight of EVs combined with low tread depth high efficiency tires often results in more frequent tire replacement on EVs. Much more frequent in fact from what I've read.

The timing belt interval on my truck is 150K miles. At that time I'll do the Waterpump & belts as well. It'll cost me about $400 in parts and I'll do it in an afternoon.

Seems many maintenance costs for ICE are way over exaggerated in some circles. It's not like EVs run to 150K miles with no maintenance, not Tesla's anyways.

 

[Suns_PSD]

GM announced today that the 2023 model year Bolt EV will start at $26,595 US - a significant price cut at a time where other EV manufacturers are increasing prices. Sure, it is the Bolt, but GM seems to have fixed the major problem with the batteries and I know some who have researched it who say that it is a pretty good car, and especially so for the money.

I find that car impressive looking and performing. Very compelling vehicle and IF you have a place to charge it, it's got real potential to actually save someone some money at those prices.

The largest issue as I see it, is that it's a young non-family person's car. That group often does not have a stable charging situation.

I love the math with this vehicle, but piling in a family isn't always comfortable with a car like that.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I've done the detailed math involved in comparing a solar install over a 30 year timeframe compared to investing in the S&P, and you still come out ahead over that timeframe, and depending on the cost of solar and electricity where you live, you can come out significantly ahead.

Sincerely, I'd love to see that math. Please share if you have it. I'm certainly aware that other areas pay significantly more for energy than I do locally and that changes the equation greatly. Some people live in very sunny climates with a perfect South facing roof with no shadows in the Northern hemisphere. All of these things can and will change your equations.

In my experience getting quotes, the solar panel sales people rely on significant predicted price increases in electricity year over year and the effects of compounding rates to make their 'math' eventually work around year 18-20.

When I contacted my electricity provider I found that in reality electricity rates had decreased significantly in my area over the previous decade. Which completely destroyed that argument.

Look, I'm going to install a solar array at my new home. I want to do my best to be off the grid, reduce dependence, protect myself from future rate increases, fuel my cars for 'free', etc. Furthermore I have no debt and all tax advantaged investments are already maxed out. But at my current electric rates the math is tenuous at best, a total loser at worst.

 

[chinney]

I find that car impressive looking and performing. Very compelling vehicle and IF you have a place to charge it, it's got real potential to actually save someone some money at those prices.

The largest issue as I see it, is that it's a young non-family person's car. That group often does not have a stable charging situation.

I love the math with this vehicle, but piling in a family isn't always comfortable with a car like that.

Admittedly, the Bolt is a bit small. Fine for a single person or a young couple without kids, or with just one child, or maybe even two kids if they are not going on a long trip with a lot of luggage. Beyond that, it will get pretty tight. But as an entry-level EV for those who do not need a lot of space, the Bolt has a lot going for it at that price.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Agreed chinney, I think it looks really cool as well. Also a kid driving one with paper plates was slowing down and accelerating on the freeway next to me recently and the thing got up and moved really well!

Another point is that it appears that GM has found a way to push pricing down and still sell the car profitably. That in itself is a big deal.

 

[gx9901]

GM announced today that the 2023 model year Bolt EV will start at $26,595 US - a significant price cut at a time where other EV manufacturers are increasing prices. Sure, it is the Bolt, but GM seems to have fixed the major problem with the batteries and I know some who have researched it who say that it is a pretty good car, and especially so for the money.

I found this to be a relatively shocking development, almost like GM is giving us the tax credit themselves. I was expecting to see big price increases in most 2023 models, given the big increases we've seen in Tesla over the last few months. Now it'll be really interesting to see what the MSRP will be for 2023 Ioniq5 and EV6.

 

[mangrove79]

Per recommended intervals I'll be doing the 1st transmission service at 100K. I already purchased the 6 quarts of Amsoil and the filter. About $100. I'll do it myself.

The rear brakes on my previous truck went to 205K miles before needing replacement. The fronts were never replaced and the truck was totaled by it's new owner at 240K miles. So no, I haven't needed brakes. My wife drives her car very aggressively and I installed rear brake pads on her jeep. $35 and an hour of time at 73K miles.

I just went to my 3rd set of tires (including the OEM set as #1) which is another point. The torque and weight of EVs combined with low tread depth high efficiency tires often results in more frequent tire replacement on EVs. Much more frequent in fact from what I've read.

The timing belt interval on my truck is 150K miles. At that time I'll do the Waterpump & belts as well. It'll cost me about $400 in parts and I'll do it in an afternoon.

Seems many maintenance costs for ICE are way over exaggerated in some circles. It's not like EVs run to 150K miles with no maintenance, not Tesla's anyways.

Merriam-Webster should straight copy this post for the word "Anecdotal" in its dictionary.

I mean, seriously, you're handy! You're probably in the top 0.001% in the world. Heck, you even build your own house and your own solar roof. Your cars and trucks are also in the top 0.001% in terms of quality and longevity. I'm not being sarcastic with respect to that, but I am wondering how those great numbers of yours translate into an argument that maintenance cost is low for the rest of the 99.999% of the population who needs a shop to perform all of those services you listed. For everything that'll cost you "$400 in parts and I'll do it in an afternoon", it'll cost an average person "$1,500 in parts and $800 in labor". How many people would have the luxury of not replacing brakes after 200K miles, unless they run their trucks on a treadmill?

I can definitely sense a bit of arrogance when using this type of argument. Someone else in another thread argued that his critical thinking ability is beyond reproach because "I'm a PhD and a pilot and I worked for Fortune top 10 company for many years, etc., etc." Those are all great achievements in themselves but using them to support an argument just seems a bit much to me.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Merriam-Webster should straight copy this post for the word "Anecdotal" in its dictionary.

I mean, seriously, you're handy! You're probably in the top 0.001% in the world. Heck, you even build your own house and your own solar roof. Your cars and trucks are also in the top 0.001% in terms of quality and longevity. I'm not being sarcastic with respect to that, but I am wondering how those great numbers of yours translate into an argument that maintenance cost is low for the rest of the 99.999% of the population who needs a shop to perform all of those services you listed. For everything that'll cost you "$400 in parts and I'll do it in an afternoon", it'll cost an average person "$1,500 in parts and $800 in labor". How many people would have the luxury of not replacing brakes after 200K miles, unless they run their trucks on a treadmill?

I can definitely sense a bit of arrogance when using this type of argument. Someone else in another thread argued that his critical thinking ability is beyond reproach because "I'm a PhD and a pilot and I worked for Fortune top 10 company for many years, etc., etc." Those are all great achievements in themselves but using them to support an argument just seems a bit much to me.

I'm just following the intervals man and doing the oil changes myself.

You can add the labor if you want, it isn't much. I was told $550 for the timing belt service & parts at the dealer.

I'm easy on my brakes, this is a fact. I try to coast down a bit. However my wife is a brute, and her Grand Cherokee rear brakes still lasted 73K miles. I literally just did this service a few weeks ago, first time I've had to properly work on a car in several years.

It appears some greatly overestimate ICE maintenance expenses. My recommendation: Buy GM if you want the most long term cheap to operate motor vehicle. In whatever category you are shopping.

 

[patmurphey]

Enjoy your cheap gas cars! I'm happy with switching from a delightful Audi Q5 to a more delightful Model Y LR - similar pricing.

 

[BigNerd]

@Suns_PSD

Since you have a BAT, let's use full-size trucks for this cost comparison then.

Today, a moderately equipped 2022 Ford F-150 will cost ~$55k.

The Lightning, although claimed to start at $40k, I expect will have a similarly equipped model (compared to the ICE version) at around $65k before the Fed/State credits. Factor those in and your are probably looking at a $2k difference.

Now add in the fuel savings vs electricity cost, lower maintenance (no oil changes, less brake wear) and you have to see the EV coming ahead.

 

[sleepydoc]

I'm just following the intervals man and doing the oil changes myself.

You can add the labor if you want, it isn't much. I was told $550 for the timing belt service & parts at the dealer.

I'm easy on my brakes, this is a fact. I try to coast down a bit. However my wife is a brute, and her Grand Cherokee rear brakes still lasted 73K miles. I literally just did this service a few weeks ago, first time I've had to properly work on a car in several years.

It appears some greatly overestimate ICE maintenance expenses. My recommendation: Buy GM if you want the most long term cheap to operate motor vehicle. In whatever category you are shopping.

From Edmunds.com, 5 year/75k mile cost to own for a Grand Cherokee:
$5300 maintenance
$1389 repairs
$12472 fuel
Fuel, maintenance and repairs end up being $19,161. That ignores financing, insurance, depreciation, etc.

I don't know what kind of truck you have - our Honda Odyssey recommends changing the transmission fluid at 45k, brake fluid every 3 years, timing belt & spark plugs at 100k (actually the timing belt Rec is 60k for severe conditions which included MN). The water pump generally gets changed with the timing belt. Coolant flush is every 60k. It's been a good car and we've had relatively few problems with it but it still costs money to maintain. Then there's the 19MPG economy...

You seem to be underestimating the maintenance costs.

 

[sleepydoc]

@Suns_PSD

Since you have a BAT, let's use full-size trucks for this cost comparison then.

Today, a moderately equipped 2022 Ford F-150 will cost ~$55k.

The Lightning, although claimed to start at $40k, I expect will have a similarly equipped model (compared to the ICE version) at around $65k before the Fed/State credits. Factor those in and your are probably looking at a $2k difference.

Now add in the fuel savings vs electricity cost, lower maintenance (no oil changes, less brake wear) and you have to see the EV coming ahead.

Our neighbor just got a new Ram pickup - it was $80k. Of course they need it to tow a camper so an EV really isn't a viable option for them. Even though the Ford Lightning or Tesla CyberTruck could technically pull the camper, the range would be so bad that it wouldn't be practical.

Then you need to consider all the people who get trucks because they like them (like my son's girlfriend,) not because they actually use them. They could get a Tesla or another EV for cheaper, save money and invest in the stock market!

 

[PineNut]

Admittedly, the Bolt is a bit small. Fine for a single person or a young couple without kids, or with just one child, or maybe even two kids if they are not going on a long trip with a lot of luggage. Beyond that, it will get pretty tight. But as an entry-level EV for those who do not need a lot of space, the Bolt has a lot going for it at that price.

I had a Bolt and really enjoyed it. I thought it was perfect for local city driving due to its economy and small size making it easy to park. They were very reliable too, with the big exception being the battery recall which appears to be fixed now. While the front seats were undersized and cramped for larger people, the back seat had good leg room for a car that size. It had more room than a Kona and was close to a Niro EV. I ended up selling mine back to Chevy (for about the same I paid for it) since it was a 2020 model and while they've been replacing batteries on the 2017-2019 cars (which had most all the battery fires), there is still no date I'm aware of to replace the 2020 model batteries.

I hope the $26K price for a 2023 model will get a lot more people to join the EV world. However there was a brief time you could get a 2021 model at even an lower price (I was seeing as low as $21K). I think the lower price actually makes sense since Chevy is still saying that they plan to sell an electric 2023 Equinox SUV starting at $30K (got a recent email still saying that). The Bolt still has the older LG batteries with slow CCS charge times, but the Equinox is supposed to have the new "Ultium" batteries.

I wonder who will compete with Chevy once (or if) they start selling EVs at those prices?

 

[sleepydoc]

I thought it was perfect for local city driving due to its economy and small size making it easy to park.

ultimately it depends on people's needs. A lot of people buy far more car than they actually need. I have a neighbor that has 2 suburbans - 'because we have to haul the boat.' But they only have one boat - maybe they need a spare truck in case one breaks down?

When we got our cabin a few years ago checked and the local marina will pick up and drop off our boat for $150. For $300 per year I'm more than happy not to buy a truck!

 

[chinney]

I had a Bolt and really enjoyed it. I thought it was perfect for local city driving due to its economy and small size making it easy to park. They were very reliable too, with the big exception being the battery recall which appears to be fixed now. While the front seats were undersized and cramped for larger people, the back seat had good leg room for a car that size. It had more room than a Kona and was close to a Niro EV. I ended up selling mine back to Chevy (for about the same I paid for it) since it was a 2020 model and while they've been replacing batteries on the 2017-2019 cars (which had most all the battery fires), there is still no date I'm aware of to replace the 2020 model batteries.

I hope the $26K price for a 2023 model will get a lot more people to join the EV world. However there was a brief time you could get a 2021 model at even an lower price (I was seeing as low as $21K). I think the lower price actually makes sense since Chevy is still saying that they plan to sell an electric 2023 Equinox SUV starting at $30K (got a recent email still saying that). The Bolt still has the older LG batteries with slow CCS charge times, but the Equinox is supposed to have the new "Ultium" batteries.

I wonder who will compete with Chevy once (or if) they start selling EVs at those prices?

Maybe GM will be the one to make decent, affordable EVs for the general population. I have never owned a GM, but who knows - maybe I will in the future, when it comes time to replace our Model 3. I would at least give it some consideration. It looks like GM is putting some serious effort into EV development.

 

[TigerNinety]

I haven’t read all of this thread, but as nice as the price is, I think I’d be waiting for some significant time to pass without a battery fire Before I’d buy one.

 

[chinney]

I haven’t read all of this thread, but as nice as the price is, I think I’d be waiting for some significant time to pass without a battery fire Before I’d buy one.

Tesla has had some battery fires too. Perhaps it has not had the same degree of problem that GM had with the Bolt for a couple of years, but it has had some. That has not undermined my confidence in our Model 3.

My understanding is that EVs catch fire far less than ICE cars. Let's face it, in an ICE car you are sitting a very small distance away from a tank of highly-flammable and explosive liquid. There is no way around that. My parents almost caught on fire when a guest's car spontaneously burst into flames. My brother-in-law was driving with his young daughters in his Porsche a couple of years ago when they stopped to get an ice cream cone at a local parlour; they got out and were about 20 feet from the vehicle when it exploded and was engulfed in a ranging fire. But with ICE cars, that is not publicized - it is just happens.

 

[orion2001]

Sincerely, I'd love to see that math. Please share if you have it. I'm certainly aware that other areas pay significantly more for energy than I do locally and that changes the equation greatly. Some people live in very sunny climates with a perfect South facing roof with no shadows in the Northern hemisphere. All of these things can and will change your equations.

In my experience getting quotes, the solar panel sales people rely on significant predicted price increases in electricity year over year and the effects of compounding rates to make their 'math' eventually work around year 18-20.

When I contacted my electricity provider I found that in reality electricity rates had decreased significantly in my area over the previous decade. Which completely destroyed that argument.

Look, I'm going to install a solar array at my new home. I want to do my best to be off the grid, reduce dependence, protect myself from future rate increases, fuel my cars for 'free', etc. Furthermore I have no debt and all tax advantaged investments are already maxed out. But at my current electric rates the math is tenuous at best, a total loser at worst.

I'll see if I can dig up my spreadsheet, but you have to factor in capital gains tax on the s&p side of things as well as subtract your annual energy cost that you would have "covered" with Solar, and you have to factor annual energy price increases (there are good non rose tinted public sources for such data). On the solar side of things I also factored in annual panel degredation based on the panel specsheet so as not to be super optimistic about things. I might be forgetting a few other things.

 

[sleepydoc]

Tesla has had some battery fires too. Perhaps it has not had the same degree of problem that GM had with the Bolt for a couple of years, but it has had some. That has not undermined my confidence in our Model 3.

My understanding is that EVs catch fire far less than ICE cars. Let's face it, in an ICE car you are sitting a very small distance away from a tank of highly-flammable and explosive liquid. There is no way around that. My parents almost caught on fire when a guest's car spontaneously burst into flames. My brother-in-law was driving with his young daughters in his Porsche a couple of years ago when they stopped to get an ice cream cone at a local parlour; they got out and were about 20 feet from the vehicle when it exploded and was engulfed in a ranging fire. But with ICE cars, that is not publicized - it is just happens.

If Facebook and twitter would have been around 150 years ago when the gasoline powered internal combustion engine was being invented and commercialized I'm quite sure there would have been a flurry of posts saying "who needs an automobile? my horse never exploded on me - those things are dangerous!"