Is there an audiologist in the house?

[suwaneedad]

I'm wondering about the long-term effects of electric motor 'whine' on the human ear.
I've driven a LEAF daily for 6.5 years, and will add a Tesla imminently.
I'm now 46, and have noticed hearing loss the past few years particularly in crowded places (can't discern your voice from the background noise).
The loss could very well be purely from aging. But wondering if anyone has knowledge of the (potential) effects of exposing the human ear to the electric motor 'whine' of the EVs we know and love.
Thanks.

 

[SDRick]

In my experience with electric cars, road noise is a bigger factor than motor noise. Given the relatively low decibel levels encountered, I can't imagine any hearing loss being attributed to motor whine.

 

[scottm]

WHAT !?!?!

Did you say something?



If the motor whining is near the same pitch as your wife's voice, that's where males tend to lose their hearing first. True fact!

 

[Hornedfrog1]

I'm wondering about the long-term effects of electric motor 'whine' on the human ear.
I've driven a LEAF daily for 6.5 years, and will add a Tesla imminently.
I'm now 46, and have noticed hearing loss the past few years particularly in crowded places (can't discern your voice from the background noise).
The loss could very well be purely from aging. But wondering if anyone has knowledge of the (potential) effects of exposing the human ear to the electric motor 'whine' of the EVs we know and love.
Thanks.

I am a Doctor of Audiology. What everyone needs to know is that it’s actually the power/loudness of the noise that is dangerous and is measured in decibels, dB. In terms of danger it’s actually the low frequency sounds that are more dangerous so the boomer bass cars are destroying their hearing rapidly. 60 dB is the loudness level of the average human voice in conversation. Constant exposure to an 80 dB sounds for 8 hours will start to do permanent damage and here’s the scary thing....for every 5 dB increase in loudness, the time of exposure for damage is cut in half. By the time you’re dealing with a lawn mower, which is around 100 dB you’re looking at only about a half an hour of constant exposure before permanent damage is done. A rock concert at 120 dB or greater....you’re looking a seconds of exposure for permanent damage to occur. I can’t even hear the motors in my car but the road noise is strong so I think you’re ok with the motors. The rule is, hearing protection hearing protection hearing protection around noisy things. What you’re describing is a high frequency hearing loss...which is the loss of the sounds of speech which allow us to differentiate between similar sounds. This only gets worse in background noise so boat sounds like coat, bat and cat, dog and log, etc. it can be brought on by age and or noise exposure. Take the insert earphones out of your ears. You’re ruining your hearing. The rule is...if you can’t hear voices easily around you with headphones, it’s too loud. I suggest finding a licensed Audioogist in your area, not a hearing aid dispenser, and get your hearing tested for a good baseline.

 

[Scott_K]

Diminished hearing in noise is a classic finding of high frequency sensorineural loss. I agree with the others however that the amplitude (loudness) of the sound coming from the electric motor is likely not high enough to cause cochlear hair cell damage and hearing loss. There are a ton of causes of hearing loss, but given your age (and with common things being common) you’re most likely dealing with prebycusis (i.e. age related hearing loss).

I agree with @Hornedfrog1 that a baseline audiogram is a good idea to see where your thresholds and speech discrimination scores are at baseline.

I don’t agree however with his blanket assertion that “insert earphones are ruining your hearing”. That’s a little overdramatic. Over the ear headphones have the potential to be just as damaging; you just need to be careful with how loud you’re playing music through the headphones (I do acknowledge that less sound will leak with inserts than OTEs). Lots of people wear inserts daily without “ruining their hearing”.

 

[Rockster]

For decades it's been part of my family's culture to wear ear plugs or ear muffs when we do most anything that produces harmful noise. Vacuuming the carpet. Using a power drill or saw. Running lawn equipment. Even running the blender or the mixer in the kitchen. We wear ear plugs or ear muffs. Call us weird but we've always been aware of the cumulative effects of noise and induced hearing loss, especially as we age.

 

[Hornedfrog1]

Diminished hearing in noise is a classic finding of high frequency sensorineural loss. I agree with the others however that the amplitude (loudness) of the sound coming from the electric motor is likely not high enough to cause cochlear hair cell damage and hearing loss. There are a ton of causes of hearing loss, but given your age (and with common things being common) you’re most likely dealing with prebycusis (i.e. age related hearing loss).

I agree with @Hornedfrog1 that a baseline audiogram is a good idea to see where your thresholds and speech discrimination scores are at baseline.

I don’t agree however with his blanket assertion that “insert earphones are ruining your hearing”. That’s a little overdramatic. Over the ear headphones have the potential to be just as damaging; you just need to be careful with how loud you’re playing music through the headphones (I do acknowledge that less sound will leak with inserts than OTEs). Lots of people wear inserts daily without “ruining their hearing”.

The problem with insert earphones is that when people put them in it blocks any chance that any of the sound will escape from the external auditory meatus or ear canal. It’s simple pressure dynamics, the closer you are to a sound source the greater the pressure coming from that source. As we double the distance from a sound source the power of that sound source is cut in half. And if you look at my original response, it was loudness that I was referring to which was my point about the inserts. Thanks to insert earphones especially, but also over the ear earphones, we are seeing a HUGE increase in permanent sensori neural hearing loss in children because they turn things up far too much and don’t realize they are damaging their hearing. I’m sorry to tell you that adults will do the same thing so I stand behind my statement. I worked for two NeuroOtologists (surgeons who only work with people with big hearing and ear issues) for five years and you wouldn’t believe the number of adults, who should know better, that did absolutely stupid stuff with their ears. Yes it’s true that not everyone uses them inappropriately but there are far too many people that do so if I can help even just one more person save some of their hearing I will have done a good job.

 

[SSonnentag]

My hearing is very sensitive to high-pitched whine. Bird and rodent deterrent devices drive me crazy. There isn't any whine worth mentioning in the S. You can hear the motor at low speeds, but wind and road noise quickly mask it as speed increases, and the pitch isn't a high frequency. Decibel levels at freeway speeds generally don't exceed 70.

 

[Hornedfrog1]

For decades it's been part of my family's culture to wear ear plugs or ear muffs when we do most anything that produces harmful noise. Vacuuming the carpet. Using a power drill or saw. Running lawn equipment. Even running the blender or the mixer in the kitchen. We wear ear plugs or ear muffs. Call us weird but we've always been aware of the cumulative effects of noise and induced hearing loss, especially as we age.

That’s fantastic! That’s exactly what you should be doing around noise. Vaccuums are so darn noisy today that I tell everyone to do everything you can to help protect those ears because once the hearing is gone, it’s gone. It’s probably not necessary to use them with the mixer but if it makes you feel more comfortable then go ahead. The blender on the other hand is a horribly loud screaming device lol. Keep using them around those noisy things and don’t be embarrassed for using them at concerts, it’s absolutely necessary. Treat your ears well and they’ll work better, longer. Glad to HEAR y’all are protecting your hearing.

 

[suwaneedad]

I am a Doctor of Audiology. What everyone needs to know is that it’s actually the power/loudness of the noise that is dangerous and is measured in decibels, dB. In terms of danger it’s actually the low frequency sounds that are more dangerous so the boomer bass cars are destroying their hearing rapidly. 60 dB is the loudness level of the average human voice in conversation. Constant exposure to an 80 dB sounds for 8 hours will start to do permanent damage and here’s the scary thing....for every 5 dB increase in loudness, the time of exposure for damage is cut in half. By the time you’re dealing with a lawn mower, which is around 100 dB you’re looking at only about a half an hour of constant exposure before permanent damage is done. A rock concert at 120 dB or greater....you’re looking a seconds of exposure for permanent damage to occur. I can’t even hear the motors in my car but the road noise is strong so I think you’re ok with the motors. The rule is, hearing protection hearing protection hearing protection around noisy things. What you’re describing is a high frequency hearing loss...which is the loss of the sounds of speech which allow us to differentiate between similar sounds. This only gets worse in background noise so boat sounds like coat, bat and cat, dog and log, etc. it can be brought on by age and or noise exposure. Take the insert earphones out of your ears. You’re ruining your hearing. The rule is...if you can’t hear voices easily around you with headphones, it’s too loud. I suggest finding a licensed Audioogist in your area, not a hearing aid dispenser, and get your hearing tested for a good baseline.

Thanks very much for your detailed response.
I wish I'd have had been education about this topic as a kid, as I used lawn mowers for hours on end (but hey, it paid $5/hour!), occasionally with the loud noise partly blocked by even louder 80s music in my Walkman earbuds.
Now, to go educate my kids. My son goes to concerts almost like it's his job; his hearing is surely already toast. My daughters...still time to save them!
As for a hearing test, nah...I kind of like not being able to hear as well anymore, and gives me plausible deniability in a variety of situations. Helps the marriage for sure.

 

[Lloyd]

WHAT !?!?!

Did you say something?



If the motor whining is near the same pitch as your wife's voice, that's where males tend to lose their hearing first. True fact!

There is a term for this....... It's called Selective Hearing!!

 

[SMAlset]

I'm wondering about the long-term effects of electric motor 'whine' on the human ear.
I've driven a LEAF daily for 6.5 years, and will add a Tesla imminently.
I'm now 46, and have noticed hearing loss the past few years particularly in crowded places (can't discern your voice from the background noise).
The loss could very well be purely from aging. But wondering if anyone has knowledge of the (potential) effects of exposing the human ear to the electric motor 'whine' of the EVs we know and love.
Thanks.

Wow that's very concerning. Hope you do go into a hearing specialist and get checked out.

If you are concerned about road noise coming up into your Model 3 you might want to consider 3D Maxpider Kagu mats to help deaden some of the noise. They are not yet available but they have scanned a Model 3 recently and should be soon (thread on M3 TMC forum). We have them in our MS and really love them and plan to add them to our Model 3 when it arrives. The top layer is a thermoplastic rubber with carbon fiber look and raised edges and it's waterproof, the bottom layer is velcro-like to be non-skid and the middle layer is an XPE foam so acts like a sound barrier. Their also lightweight, non-toxic and odorless. Here's a video showing them. The video is old as they've been our for a few years already:

As for using earplugs for certain loud noise tasks, we do that too (but should be better like when blowdrying our hair). Always try to use the speaker feature on our phones as opposed to relying on earbuds (and when we do use them keep them low), and in general don't listen to music and movies too loudly (even been known to take those soft earplugs with us to some of the movie theaters).

 

[Hornedfrog1]

Wow that's very concerning. Hope you do go into a hearing specialist and get checked out.

If you are concerned about road noise coming up into your Model 3 you might want to consider 3D Maxpider Kagu mats to help deaden some of the noise. They are not yet available but they have scanned a Model 3 recently and should be soon (thread on M3 TMC forum). We have them in our MS and really love them and plan to add them to our Model 3 when it arrives. The top layer is a thermoplastic rubber with carbon fiber look and raised edges and it's waterproof, the bottom layer is velcro-like to be non-skid and the middle layer is an XPE foam so acts like a sound barrier. Their also lightweight, non-toxic and odorless. Here's a video showing them. The video is old as they've been our for a few years already:

As for using earplugs for certain loud noise tasks, we do that too (but should be better like when blowdrying our hair). Always try to use the speaker feature on our phones as opposed to relying on earbuds (and when we do use them keep them low), and in general don't listen to music and movies too loudly (even been known to take those soft earplugs with us to some of the movie theaters).

I’m very glad to hear that. It sounds like y’all are taking lots of smart steps to help preserve your hearing as much as you can. My family and I always have the soft silicone earplugs for movies as well. And let me tell you...the theatres know they’re too loud because if you try to take a dB reading during a movie and they see you, they get really mad lol.

 

[Hornedfrog1]

There is a term for this....... It's called Selective Hearing!!

It’s actually called “the male recessive gene aka the inability to understand women appropriately.” Lol. I test for it ALL the time.

Patient, “my wife says I can’t hear.”
Wife glaring at him as he tells me this.
Me, “ ok. I will make sure and test for the male recessive, inability to listen to women appropriately, gene.”
Wife smiling and chuckling.

 

[Hornedfrog1]

Thanks very much for your detailed response.
I wish I'd have had been education about this topic as a kid, as I used lawn mowers for hours on end (but hey, it paid $5/hour!), occasionally with the loud noise partly blocked by even louder 80s music in my Walkman earbuds.
Now, to go educate my kids. My son goes to concerts almost like it's his job; his hearing is surely already toast. My daughters...still time to save them!
As for a hearing test, nah...I kind of like not being able to hear as well anymore, and gives me plausible deniability in a variety of situations. Helps the marriage for sure.

Good idea. Educate them now and please please please remember....even though you may have hearing loss and some things don’t sound as loud as they used to or maybe not as piercing, you can still damage your ears further from noise exposure so it’s never too late to start using hearing protection. Some people think that once their hearing is damaged, further damage can not occur. This is NOT TRUE. So even if it’s just a few minutes of power tools, chainsaws, lawnmower, music, movies, the vacuum cleaner, etc, grab the hearing protection and put it on. We have four or five pairs of hearing protection scattered all over the houses lol. That’ll be $145 for the consult. Now....how do I get the bill to ya lol.

 

[suwaneedad]

That’ll be $145 for the consult. Now....how do I get the bill to ya lol.

Damn, and I'm on a high deductible plan too!
Quite seriously, thanks for the education.
And thanks for the peace of mind that the electric car battery whine is not causal.
Now, bring on my 3!!

 

[scottm]

Look at the bright side, if your hearing finally goes.. then your EV will be perfectly silent! Aaahhhh..... that's better... no whine.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Used to fit hearing aids 20 years ago in Detroit. Tought me to protect my hearing from loud noises. Was told that if you hear ringing in your ears after exposure to loud noises, such as a concert, that damage had already been done. Believe that your ears have some protection from limited loud noise, but the longer the duration or louder the sound, the more damage.

Shows up as you get older. People getting hearing aids then rarely heard as well as before the loss. The aids also did not give a natural result, and many were disappointed. Believe aids are much better now, but would still not rely on them to give you as good hearing as before your loss.

Just like drinking or smoking. The more you do and the longer you do it, the end result becomes worse.

I would be surprised if the noise levels inside a Tesla has any negative effect on people's hearing. Mine is so low, it is only noticible when I concentrate on it.

Protect your ears.

 

[Scott_K]

Thanks to insert earphones especially, but also over the ear earphones, we are seeing a HUGE increase in permanent sensori neural hearing loss in children because they turn things up far too much and don’t realize they are damaging their hearing. I’m sorry to tell you that adults will do the same thing so I stand behind my statement. I worked for two NeuroOtologists (surgeons who only work with people with big hearing and ear issues) for five years and you wouldn’t believe the number of adults, who should know better, that did absolutely stupid stuff with their ears.

I am an otolaryngologist, so I have also seen my fair share of ears.

I absolutely agree that loud music is risk factor for noise induced hearing loss, whether that is from inserts, OTEs, your home Sonos speakers or your Tesla’s sound system. Anything hitting your drum at over 85 dB is suboptimal for your cochlea. You’re correct that sound energy dissipates the further you get away from the source, but you have to remember that the EAC is only about 2 to 2.5 cm long. So there’s not a ton of energy disapated over that length (classic teaching is about 5-10 dB).

In my practice, I can’t remember the last pediatric patient who presented with permanent noise induced hearing loss. In fact, despite the fact that earbuds are not a new phenomenon (remember all of the people walking around with their Sony Walkman earbuds in the 80’s) a big study published last year showed that the rate of hearing loss seems to be dropping across the board in patients aged 20-69.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaotolaryngology/article-abstract/2592954

I don’t disagree with you that we need to be reinforcing the importance of protecting our ears around loud noises, but I think you’re catastrophizing the earbud situation.

 

[suwaneedad]

I am an otolaryngologist, so I have also seen my fair share of ears.

I absolutely agree that loud music is risk factor for noise induced hearing loss, whether that is from inserts, OTEs, your home Sonos speakers or your Tesla’s sound system. Anything hitting your drum at over 85 dB is suboptimal for your cochlea. You’re correct that sound energy dissipates the further you get away from the source, but you have to remember that the EAC is only about 2 to 2.5 cm long. So there’s not a ton of energy disapated over that length (classic teaching is about 5-10 dB).

In my practice, I can’t remember the last pediatric patient who presented with permanent noise induced hearing loss. In fact, despite the fact that earbuds are not a new phenomenon (remember all of the people walking around with their Sony Walkman earbuds in the 80’s) a big study published last year showed that the rate of hearing loss seems to be dropping across the board in patients aged 20-69.

View attachment 277500

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaotolaryngology/article-abstract/2592954

I don’t disagree with you that we need to be reinforcing the importance of protecting our ears around loud noises, but I think you’re catastrophizing the earbud situation.

Is there a credible iphone app that would measure decibels while in my car? It'd be good to know highway vs local decibel levels, and naturally it would also be good to know based on your post what volume level on the stereo keeps me below 85dB. Left unfettered, I'm likely to CRANK IT, if for no other reason than reviews seem to consistently agree that the premium stereo offering in M3PUP is fantastic (for all but the true audiophiles; I am not one). Thank you.