Jaguar I-Pace

[cizUK]

At the moment, given the information we have, you will pay for a 90 kWh battery in the I-Pace but get 60 kWh battery range. The reported efficiency is absolutely terrible... much worse than a Model X. Also, we don't know the cycle life and the efficacy of its battery thermal management systems. Given that it is a Model 3 size, the Model Y is the actual competitor but like the Bolt, it will probably be available for a year before the Y. But the 3 will be on the market at the same time with greater range for lower price.

If you check the figures, the 90kWh I-Pace does 'over 310 miles' and the Model X 90D does 303 miles (both NEDC)
60kWh would give it a 210 mile range
Yes, I know it is a smaller car, but your argument is way, way out

Also given what we have heard from the Model 3, The Model Y won't have a battery greater than 80 kWh and therefore a range of about 310 miles
Therefore they will both have similar ranges

 

[Yggdrasill]

Tesla doesn't manipulate the NEDC results like everyone else. A more fair comparison is EPA or WLTP.

In the EPA testing, the Model X 90D does 257 miles while the I-Pace is expected to do 220 miles. That's pretty bad for a smaller and lighter car. Though I agree it's not the difference between 90 and 60 kWh. More like the difference between a 90 kWh pack and a 75 kWh pack.

 

[cizUK]

Tesla doesn't manipulate the NEDC results like everyone else. A more fair comparison is EPA or WLTP.

In the EPA testing, the Model X 90D does 257 miles while the I-Pace is expected to do 220 miles. That's pretty bad for a smaller and lighter car. Though I agree it's not the difference between 90 and 60 kWh. More like the difference between a 90 kWh pack and a 75 kWh pack.

Where did you get the EPA ratings from?

 

[Yggdrasill]

Where did you get the EPA ratings from?

For Tesla, the figures are on the website. Just change to the US page. For the Jaguar - it's been widely reported. Just google it.

 

[smac]

Also given what we have heard from the Model 3, The Model Y won't have a battery greater than 80 kWh and therefore a range of about 310 miles
Therefore they will both have similar ranges

I'm not sure we can say either. The current word from Elon is the Y will be a different platform to the 3 (a strange decision if you ask me, but hey I'm not in charge at Tesla).

As it stands though I think the Y vs IPace is the fairest comparison. How either will do when they come round to proper official EPA testing is anyone's guess.

My guess, and it is just that, is the IPace will fall somewhere between the S and X of equivalent kWh.

 

[vigge50]

I have know read that I-Pace will be able to charge at 120 kW with CCS and that the price in Germany will be under 80 000 €. If that price is correct and you use other Jaguar cars to get a estimate of the price here in Sweden the price will be about 100 000 sek or $11,500 below Model S 75. I know that Model S is a bigger car and that the supercharger is better then the CCS in Europe but it seams that Tesla is starting to get competition at last.

(Germane)
Jaguar I-Pace lädt mit 120 kW (mit Video) - electrive.net

 

[RobStark]

I have know read that I-Pace will be able to charge at 120 kW with CCS and that the price in Germany will be under 80 000 €. If that price is correct and you use other Jaguar cars to get a estimate of the price here in Sweden the price will be about 100 000 sek or $11,500 below Model S 75. I know that Model S is a bigger car and that the supercharger is better then the CCS in Europe but it seams that Tesla is starting to get competition at last.

(Germane)
Jaguar I-Pace lädt mit 120 kW (mit Video) - electrive.net

It is a Model Y competitor at roughly twice the price.

Magna Steyr will be able to manufacture ~13k units per year for Jaguar?

 

[vigge50]

It is a Model Y competitor at roughly twice the price.

Magna Steyr will be able to manufacture ~13k units per year for Jaguar?

Is that just a guess about the production or do you have any sources?

Sure, you can say it's a Model Y competitor at twice the price but the same would be said about the BMW 3 series compeare to Volkswagen Golf. It's the same size but far more luxurious, I don't think the Model Y will come close to I-PACE when you look at the interior quality, not even Model S and X seams to have that good interior.

 

[RobStark]

Is that just a guess about the production or do you have any sources?

Sure, you can say it's a Model Y competitor at twice the price but the same would be said about the BMW 3 series compeare to Volkswagen Golf. It's the same size but far more luxurious, I don't think the Model Y will come close to I-PACE when you look at the interior quality, not even Model S and X seams to have that good interior.

Jaguar I-Pace to be built by Magna Steyr

Tesla isn't VW.

Tesla does not stay in place.

Compare fit, finish, and quality of materials of 2012 Model S to 2017 Model X.

Much more premium. As Tesla builds scale you will see much better interiors.

I also think Tesla will be producing 15k Model Y per week before Jaguar gets to 15k I-Pace per year.

 

[vigge50]

Jaguar I-Pace to be built by Magna Steyr

Tesla isn't VW.

Tesla does not stay in place.

Compare fit, finish, and quality of materials of 2012 Model S to 2017 Model X.

Much more premium. As Tesla builds scale you will see much better interiors.

I also think Tesla will be producing 15k Model Y per week before Jaguar gets to 15k I-Pace per year.

That's disappointing, I had really hoped that Jaguar would prepare for bigger production then that, we can only hop that they have higher there goals after they have understand how much attention I-Pace have get.

I know that Tesla is getting better and better but it would be little strange if Model 3 and Model Y have higher quality then Model S and Model X have now. If so, they need to improve Model S and Model X a lot for the next few month and years to make it fear that they cost the double against Model 3 and Model Y.

 

[techmaven]

I have know read that I-Pace will be able to charge at 120 kW with CCS and that the price in Germany will be under 80 000 €. If that price is correct and you use other Jaguar cars to get a estimate of the price here in Sweden the price will be about 100 000 sek or $11,500 below Model S 75. I know that Model S is a bigger car and that the supercharger is better then the CCS in Europe but it seams that Tesla is starting to get competition at last.

I don't understand your calculations. The i-Pace should come in at a starting price just over an F-Pace S. In Germany, that's just under 80.000 €. In Germany, a Tesla Model S 75 starts at 71.000 €, or about 9.000 € cheaper. How do you then get that the S is more expensive in Sweden from that info?

In any case, the I-Pace likely matches up pretty closely with the Mercedes EQ and the Audi Q6 e-tron from a specs/size perspective. The Q6 e-tron is likely available roughly at the same time with probably the same low 10,000's production... we know the I-Pace is slated for 13,000 in the first year. So competition is coming. It will be a bit like the Bolt... it came out in limited volume production in 2016, ahead of the 3. These vehicles will ship with limited volume production in 2018 with a nascent L3 DC charging network and the Model Y is due a year later. Of course, at the same time, you have the S/X/3 available also with a vastly superior Supercharger network. You may find that a Model 3 is actually roughly the same size with slightly less utility due to the sedan versus CUV layout.

 

[RobStark]

That's disappointing, I had really hoped that Jaguar would prepare for bigger production then that, we can only hop that they have higher there goals after they have understand how much attention I-Pace have get.

I know that Tesla is getting better and better but it would be little strange if Model 3 and Model Y have higher quality then Model S and Model X have now. If so, they need to improve Model S and Model X a lot for the next few month and years to make it fear that they cost the double against Model 3 and Model Y.

You exaggerate the deficit of Teslas current offerings.

I have no doubt Model S will receive an interior refresh soon.

And Americans use two definitions of quality regarding autos: one is the reliability and the other is the richness/luxuriousness of materials.

Jaguar reliability sucks.

The difference in reliability between Model X and Jaguar is the falcon wing doors and that seems to be largely solved on new builds. Occasionally a new Model X needs to go back to the Tesla service center to have FWDs adjusted. But just as occasionally do Jaguars need to go back to the dealerships to be fixed.

 

[vigge50]

I don't understand your calculations. The i-Pace should come in at a starting price just over an F-Pace S. In Germany, that's just under 80.000 €. In Germany, a Tesla Model S 75 starts at 71.000 €, or about 9.000 € cheaper. How do you then get that the S is more expensive in Sweden from that info?

In any case, the I-Pace likely matches up pretty closely with the Mercedes EQ and the Audi Q6 e-tron from a specs/size perspective. The Q6 e-tron is likely available roughly at the same time with probably the same low 10,000's production... we know the I-Pace is slated for 13,000 in the first year. So competition is coming. It will be a bit like the Bolt... it came out in limited volume production in 2016, ahead of the 3. These vehicles will ship with limited volume production in 2018 with a nascent L3 DC charging network and the Model Y is due a year later. Of course, at the same time, you have the S/X/3 available also with a vastly superior Supercharger network. You may find that a Model 3 is actually roughly the same size with slightly less utility due to the sedan versus CUV layout.

The problem is that Teslas prices don't make any sense. Tesla Model S 75 with the special comfort package that only exist in Germany cost 78 770 euro wish is 769 133 sek(Swedish crowns) but in Sweden it cost 873 400 sek or 14% more. Some of the differens is that we have 25% taxes while Germany have 16% i believe but still, 14% is a lot. To get the Swedish price i look at Jaguars website for Germany to found a car for little under 80 000 euro. Then I looked up the same car here in Sweden I found that it cost about 770 000 sek so I believe that the I Pace should cost somewhere around that or 100 000 sek under Model S. Of course I know that it don't have to be right but it's the best estimate I believe that I can get.

Remember now that here in Sweden all cars have a special warranty for the first three years wish means you don't need to get as expensive insurance but it did higher the price with about 20 000 sek a few years ago.

 

[vigge50]

One thing you have to take in to consideration then you think about how many they are p,a Int to produce is the size of the company, last year Jaguar sold 148 730 cars wish means that they will have about 8% of there production being electric, not many car manufacturers that are going to reach that number soon.

 

[RobStark]

One thing you have to take in to consideration then you think about how many they are p,a Int to produce is the size of the company, last year Jaguar sold 148 730 cars wish means that they will have about 8% of there production being electric, not many car manufacturers that are going to reach that number soon.

Jaguar brand sold 148k cars last year.

Jaguar Land Rover the company sold 523k cars world wide in 2016.

And JLR is a subsidiary of Tata Motors.

Jaguar brand gets to 8% electric if they produce I-Pace at full capacity and keep ICEv sales the same. Their goal is to double sales by 2020.

 

[smac]

Magna Steyr will be able to manufacture ~13k units per year for Jaguar?

I don't think Magna will be the bottleneck. More likely battery availability out of LG-Chem in the run up to completion of their plant in Poland.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but during this interview Dr. Ziebart hinted at designed production rates of a car leaving the end of the line every 2 minutes.

The Road From High-Octane To High-Tech Is Dangerous. Father Of 'Tesla-Beater' Jaguar Says Why

Doing the math on that, even a single shift would have produced all 13k annual production in 10 weeks.

 

[RobStark]

I don't think Magna will be the bottleneck. More likely battery availability out of LG-Chem in the run up to completion of their plant in Poland.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but during this interview Dr. Ziebart hinted at designed production rates of a car leaving the end of the line every 2 minutes.

The Road From High-Octane To High-Tech Is Dangerous. Father Of 'Tesla-Beater' Jaguar Says Why

Doing the math on that, even a single shift would have produced all 13k annual production in 10 weeks.

JLR states they have no extra capacity at their factories.

I-Pace will be built by Magna in Austria.

Magna has contracts with Mercedes,BMW,and VW Group to manufacture cars.

Magna's capacity allocated to the I-Pace is 13k units per year. It is that simple.

 

[Yggdrasill]

The latest news about price in Norway is "closer to 700k NOK than 500k NOK". If we say 650k NOK, that's 69k EUR or 660k SEK, before taxes. With 25% taxes in Sweden, minus 40k SEK incentive, that should be around 785k SEK for the I-Pace in Sweden.

The Model S 75 costs 589k NOK including referral discount in Norway, so it should be cheaper than the I-Pace, at least in Norway.

 

[smac]

Magna's capacity allocated to the I-Pace is 13k units per year. It is that simple.

More accurately in year 1 Magna's allocation is 13k. We don't know if they will scale up or not.

Seems to me both JLR and Magna are testing the market with the I Pace. Will they sell all 13k? That is the more important question.

 

[techmaven]

More accurately in year 1 Magna's allocation is 13k. We don't know if they will scale up or not.

Seems to me both JLR and Magna are testing the market with the I Pace. Will they sell all 13k? That is the more important question.

Yeah, at 13k a year, I'm not sure that hits any battery constraints. It is just as likely that the project is money losing at first, and that production number represents that maximum they are willing to risk that is at least partially if not fully covered by various incentives, like California CARB ZEV and overall fleet CO2 European requirements.