Jaguar I-Pace

[WannabeOwner]

SuperChargers are great, but you will encounter scenarios where lack of CCS is a problem. Unless you pack the Chademo adapter. Does it fit in the refreah frunk? I don't have one.

I don't understand this line of thinking.

Currently I can charge at Supercharger at 120-ish kW, or CHAdeMO at 50-ish kW. Yes I had to buy the adaptor, I've used it twice in two years (and public type-2 charging 3 times in two years) whereas I have used used Supercharger 63 times in the same period, so about 3 times a month. But I have the choice ... and where there is no Supercharger I can use CHAdeMO. There are plenty in the UK, but they tend to only be single pumps per site, so currently iPace is also going to be limited to using those 50kW-ish pumps.

In UK the Superchargers [according to Supercharger Info] are:

9 x 2-stalls (Newest was 2015)
6 x 4-stalls (Newest was 2015)
2 x 5-stalls
5 x 6-stalls
18 x 8-stalls
4 x 12-stalls
1 x 16-Stalls

The chances of being paired (and having reduced-charge-rate) is small, let alone the chance of finding all stalls occupied and having to wait. Car Dashboard shows the Status of sites (including # of free stalls) so can bypass a site if busy (and not urgently needing a charge). New sites are no longer being rolled out with few stalls.

I don't see how anyone would compare Supercharger to "Alternative" and find "Alternative" to be anything other than dismal, at present.

Looking on Plugshare (until I got bored, as no country-wide list so had to click on each Pin) there was one site in SE UK which had 3x CSS/SAE (probably shared with CHAdeMO), of the rest (about 25 that I checked) more than half were single-pump, and 7 had a user-reported error/failure (within the last month or so), so chance of being Blocked will be relatively high, and also the potential to find that no pump is working (although next pump won;t be far away, provided you have the right APP / membership).

I've had slow-charging at Supercharger once, and I just moved to a different stall to fix that. I have had zero occurrences of "not working / couldn't charge".

Yes the CHAdeMO fits in my Frunk, along with my UMC cable and also my Type-2 - both of which are "decent length and hefty".

Undoubtedly 150 kW-ish CCS will be rolled out over time, but its going to take time measured in years, not months. Meantime Superchargers continue to be rolled out, further reducing the gaps in the coverage.

I think the Jag looks great, and will appeal to lots of people, existing Jag owners in particular, but away-from-home fast charging is not going to be viable for quite some time.

 

[McRat]

I don't understand this line of thinking.

Currently I can charge at Supercharger at 120-ish kW, or CHAdeMO at 50-ish kW. Yes I had to buy the adaptor, I've used it twice in two years (and public type-2 charging 3 times in two years) whereas I have used used Supercharger 63 times in the same period, so about 3 times a month. But I have the choice ... and where there is no Supercharger I can use CHAdeMO. There are plenty in the UK, but they tend to only be single pumps per site, so currently iPace is also going to be limited to using those 50kW-ish pumps.

In UK the Superchargers [according to Supercharger Info] are:

9 x 2-stalls (Newest was 2015)
6 x 4-stalls (Newest was 2015)
2 x 5-stalls
5 x 6-stalls
18 x 8-stalls
4 x 12-stalls
1 x 16-Stalls

The chances of being paired (and having reduced-charge-rate) is small, let alone the chance of finding all stalls occupied and having to wait. Car Dashboard shows the Status of sites (including # of free stalls) so can bypass a site if busy (and not urgently needing a charge). New sites are no longer being rolled out with few stalls.

I don't see how anyone would compare Supercharger to "Alternative" and find "Alternative" to be anything other than dismal, at present.

Looking on Plugshare (until I got bored, as no country-wide list so had to click on each Pin) there was one site in SE UK which had 3x CSS/SAE (probably shared with CHAdeMO), of the rest (about 25 that I checked) more than half were single-pump, and 7 had a user-reported error/failure (within the last month or so), so chance of being Blocked will be relatively high, and also the potential to find that no pump is working (although next pump won;t be far away, provided you have the right APP / membership).

I've had slow-charging at Supercharger once, and I just moved to a different stall to fix that. I have had zero occurrences of "not working / couldn't charge".

Yes the CHAdeMO fits in my Frunk, along with my UMC cable and also my Type-2 - both of which are "decent length and hefty".

Undoubtedly 150 kW-ish CCS will be rolled out over time, but its going to take time measured in years, not months. Meantime Superchargers continue to be rolled out, further reducing the gaps in the coverage.

I think the Jag looks great, and will appeal to lots of people, existing Jag owners in particular, but away-from-home fast charging is not going to be viable for quite some time.

This is huge worry that only applies to people who own only BEVs and have DCFC near them and all the way to their specific destination.

I know on this board, 99% of polled people will say they only have access to BEVs for long trips, they are afraid of trains, flying, rental cars, and do not own nor can borrow an ICE car. They also have never thrown an aluminum can in the trash ever.

I believe this is not the truth. Our electric cars outnumber our ICE cars, but we have 2 AWD ICE cars that can drive from California, Central America to Dead Horse, Alaska, to Maine, and to Miami. No BEV can do that. But neither would I. except on a motorcycle someday if I'm lucky.

If remote charging was a true deal killer, you selected the wrong technology. There are EREVs that operate at full instant power on electricity for 40-70 miles, which a normal commute, but then have a smaller gasoline high efficiency generator, that can go anywhere that EV infrastructure is lacking.

So people actually do not care about DCFC infrastructure limiting where they drive. They accept it. No area has 100% coverage.

 

[WannabeOwner]

huge worry

. Indeed.

I'm Echo-minded, so "disappointed" when I can't take EV on a trip and have to resort to Dino-fuel. That's not all Tesla-owners state of mind, let along forthcoming Jag owners.

One point though: I have grown to love EV driving, and to hate "suck, squeeze, bang, blow", you too maybe?. I expect Jag owners will do too, and then will be frustrated at having to take the "polluter" for longer trips.

EV fuel over here very cheap too (relative to Petrol), so that might be another sore point for the "long distance car" too ...

 

[McRat]

. Indeed.

I'm Echo-minded, so "disappointed" when I can't take EV on a trip and have to resort to Dino-fuel. That's not all Tesla-owners state of mind, let along forthcoming Jag owners.

One point though: I have grown to love EV driving, and to hate "suck, squeeze, bang, blow", you too maybe?. I expect Jag owners will do too, and then will be frustrated at having to take the "polluter" for longer trips.

EV fuel over here very cheap too (relative to Petrol), so that might be another sore point for the "long distance car" too ...

I have to drive ICE now and then (pickup truck required, or long distance high speed bonzai runs to Las Vegas in a land yacht). So far EVs take longer to get there or cannot do the heavy lifting. But with my wife's gambling, an EV trip would probably save money!

ICE powertrains now bug me after 5 years of daily driving on electricity. I miss the 'full tank in the AM', the no-warmup, the instant thrust with no noise, even on a cold motor. And just the feel. But it's not like driving the truck or luxury barge is being waterboarded either. It's just like using a pair of pliers on a bolt instead of a socket. Wrong tool, PITA.

 

[X Fan]

I read these items, and will answer them:

The wheel sizes are 18", 20", 22". 22" is optional.

The battery capacity according to the Owner's Manual is 84.7 kWh.

The documentation of the specifications is often incomplete or utterly wrong. Think about the pre-release range of 200 miles for the Chevrolet Bolt EV, which is actually 238 miles at release. Both used LG Chem engineers in the development loop.

The 240 miles of EPA range might be a poor translation. There is no EPA range first off. And 80% keeps popping up again and again. If that 240 is 80% that means 300 miles of 100% charge range which lines up with the WLTP filing of 480km.

Jaguar USA states 240 miles on their web site. Aren’t they a valid source vs other speculators including some on this site?

 

[McRat]

Jaguar USA states 240 miles on their web site. Aren’t they a valid source vs other speculators including some on this site?

Jaguar states 220mi, 240mi, and WLTP 480km on their web pages. They claim it can be recharged in the owner's manual. You must open the charge door, and you cannot drive it while charging. The 'charger' has lights that mean something. That is all the information as of June 5, 2018. It might come with a charger. It might support J1772 and CCS. However the owner's manual makes no such claim other than the battery is in fact rechargeable.

Jaguar states you can tow 750kg with the supplied hitch. There is no hitch or option for one.

Tires must last forever. No instructions about how to lift the car or lug torque.

 

[McRat]

Jaguar USA states 240 miles on their web site. Aren’t they a valid source vs other speculators including some on this site?

I remember on this board the huge debate about whether the Chevrolet Bolt EV could actually go 200 miles on a charge in real life as was claimed before release.

Bjorn Nyland sort of settled that by going about 300 miles with 3 people and luggage, no hypermiling, not summer.

The EPA numbers ended up being 238 miles Combined.

 

[scaesare]

I thought CCS1 was 500V and CCS2 was 1000V?

CCS2 is at least 350A/1000V/350kW, which actually makes it slower than supercharging for a 400V pack, given that supercharging supports 360A.

In the other thread where @hiroshiy and I chatted about this, I posted this CCS 1.0 spec link.. now admittedly it's Wikipedia, so it could be incorrect, but it specifies 400V.

The other thing I've had trouble determining is how many existing CCS installations are 1.0... haven't found a resource for this. I suspect many of the 25-50KW stations could be...

 

[scaesare]

Maybe this is already discussed before, but @scaesare and I briefly talked in one of the invester's threads, that the pack is 108S and the voltage must be 454V fully charged. Scaesare pointed out that unlike CHAdeMO, CCS 1.0 voltage limit is 400V. Will there be a compatibility issue with DCFCs?

Also, I agree that the 108S architecture is most likely (moreso than 72), but have we seen anything official stating that?

 

[McRat]

Also, I agree that the 108S architecture is most likely (moreso than 72), but have we seen anything official stating that?

Yes, there is an interview with a JLR engineer somewhere. It is also quoted in magazines. In the owners manual it is listed at 388 volts. This is not correct for LG 96s Volt/Bolt packs which are 360v nominal. That's actually the long term storage voltage.

 

[MP3Mike]

The Bolt has aluminium plates with fluid channels between the pouches - I expect the i-Pace does that, although with the exact pattern of the fluid channels differing.

@Riggald I'm pretty sure that is wrong. The Bolt has a plate that has fluid channels in it that the battery modules sit on, no fluid actually goes through/between the battery cells. (The Volt battery pack on the other hand is like you describe.)

 

[scaesare]

There are reasons to give credence to the EA plan, imo, and to believe that CCS will expand even more rapidly.

50kW CCS in the US grew from 115 locations at end 2016 to 1,100 locations currently, split between three operators, not incl. EA. (~650 locations per year)

EA had their first 350kW location go live a couple of months ago now. They are an additional operator to the biggest 3.
evGo has now broken ground on their own first 350kW location.

The EA plan is well-funded (VW's dieselgate penance money). Their plan seems conservative compared to Tesla's latest plan.

It would be really useful if EA published monthly or quarterly progress reports, but I'm guessing they won't, until the Audi e-Tron Quattro comes to market.

============
Footnotes:
Tesla had ~330 US locations at end 2016 after 4 years (~77 per year) , and ~600-650 at end 2017 (~120/year average run, ~300/year peak).
The latest announced plan says the rate is going to increase again, but I cannot find a break-out of figures for the USA.
Minimum of 4 stalls per location. ~7-8 stalls per average Supercharger location.

EA's plan for the next 18 months is for 484 locations, in groups of 3 to 6 in rural locations, and 4 to 10 in metro locations, for a total of ~2,700 chargers. It seems to be a mix of 350kW CCS only, and 150kW CCS with an additional 50kW Chademo outlet. (It could be that there are also going to be 50kW CCS with 50kW Chademo outlets in that ~2,700 figure)

(Going off Chargehub.com) Dealers seem to now make up <10% of the CCS infrastructure, and most locations are 2 charger, with more 4 charger locations than 1 charger locations. (Checking a couple of states thoroughly on Chargehub and Plugshare, plus random checks in a couple of other states)

A lot of folks are of the opinion that the Electrify America initiative, by virtue of it's being so well funded and having impressive paper specs, is going to give the Supercharger network a run for it's money. I would actually love to see that, but there are some things that make me a bit skeptical:

- The EA initiative hasn't exactly been speedy... I dunno if this is the "paralysis by analysis" nature of committee-driven projects, the result of this being a punitive "forced" activity, or something else... maybe it's just standard scheduling and it just looks slow compared to the Supercharger rollout.

- EVGo, has been selected as one of (several) management companies to partner with. Just recently it's been noted that their one high-power installation is basically DOA

- The fact that there are multiple management companies, the possibility for multiple payment systems, etc... in the initiative doesn't necessarily bode well for consistency.

- Maintenance and reliability has bit a bit of a bane for several 3rd party charging networks. EVGo's seem to have more than their fare share of issues​

- There are also multiple charger vendors. Physical interoperability has already been problematic across charger manufacturers.

- The initial 2 EA sites were kind in the middle of nowhere and not on a route leading to anywhere notable.... while that may have been intentional for volume/testing reasons, I'm not sure how many people are going to need a 350KW charger in Chicopee, MA.

-What's more, the EA charger layout is weird


So, while lots of money is boing thrown at EA, there are lots of reasons it could fail to thrive. People being forced to spend money as punishment aren't always invested in success. For many of the reasons I listed, the network may have issues. Again, I hope not, but as of yet I'm not convinced it's a sure thing.

 

[scaesare]

Yes, there is an interview with a JLR engineer somewhere. It is also quoted in magazines. In the owners manual it is listed at 388 volts. This is not correct for LG 96s Volt/Bolt packs which are 360v nominal. That's actually the long term storage voltage.

OK cool, thanks. Indeed 388v would be nominal for a 108s li-ion pack.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Jaguar states you can tow 750kg with the supplied hitch. There is no hitch or option for one.

After a massive amount of requests, Jaguar caved in and offers a tow hitch option in Norway, at least. The cars won't come with the tow hitch from the factory, though, the tow hitch (developed/manufactured by Jaguar SVO) has to be installed at the dealer, and costs $2300.

 

[Riggald]

...- The EA initiative hasn't exactly been speedy... I dunno if this is the "paralysis by analysis" nature of committee-driven projects, the result of this being a punitive "forced" activity, or something else... maybe it's just standard scheduling and it just looks slow compared to the Supercharger rollout....

Imo, the long pause til EA started roll-out , and the fact that roll-out is due to finish just as VW starts its US electric car sales, are tied.

2/3rd of roll-out is due over the next 12 months, when the Audi e-Tron Quattro is due on sale. The final 1/3rd finishes in 18 months, just in time for VW's 2020 launches.

Atm, all they'd do is help BMW, GM and Jaguar. I suspect that's not the bang they want for their dieselgate-penance bucks.

Or I could just be a cynic.

Anyway, atm West and East coast trips are quite feasible on CCS, as, weirdly, is LA to Salt Lake City. The sooner someone - whether EA or one of those other 3 - start connecting to those oases in the centre, like Colorado or Texas, the better.

 

[McRat]

After a massive amount of requests, Jaguar caved in and offers a tow hitch option in Norway, at least. The cars won't come with the tow hitch from the factory, though, the tow hitch (developed/manufactured by Jaguar SVO) has to be installed at the dealer, and costs $2300.

Thanks! I didn't even know they made gold-plated hitches.

I might have to draft somebody from Europe to acquire one. I have to get certain motorcycle parts from Europe since US dealers will not order EU-specific part numbers.

 

[Riggald]

@Riggald I'm pretty sure that is wrong. The Bolt has a plate that has fluid channels in it that the battery modules sit on, no fluid actually goes through/between the battery cells. (The Volt battery pack on the other hand is like you describe.)

Sorry, I must have misremembered which GM vehicle the vertical plate came out of. I'm pretty sure the i-Pace will have tween-cell cooling plates - they seem pretty sure that their thermal management is at the tighter end of things. (Jag are saying control within 2-3degC, and that they've seen others' active thermal be as lax as 10degC)

(This was the pic I was remembering, and yes it's a Volt pic. Thanks for the correction)

 

[McRat]

Sorry, I must have misremembered which GM vehicle the vertical plate came out of. I'm pretty sure the i-Pace will have tween-cell colling plates - they seem pretty sure that their thermal management is at the tighter end of things. (Jag are saying control within 2-3degC, and that they've seen others' active thermal be as lax as 10degC)

I would not be convinced without disassembling the pack. There is no top plate, so a bottom plate would have virtually zero effect since the heat is not generated at the pouch fold-over flanges. There would be no way to remove the heat especially since heat rises. The Volt plates are very thin with a racetrack pattern for capillary sized water passages. You would not know they exist without taking the pack apart.

 

[M-71]

After a massive amount of requests, Jaguar caved in and offers a tow hitch option in Norway, at least. The cars won't come with the tow hitch from the factory, though, the tow hitch (developed/manufactured by Jaguar SVO) has to be installed at the dealer, and costs $2300.

$2300 for a manual tow hitch (max 750kg)? I'll pass on that one.

 

[McRat]

The Volt cooling plates are 0.95mm total thickness with insulated coating. The aluminum sheet itself is 0.13mm, and the inlet and outlet are at the bottom (my image is 90° CW). They are invisible from the outside.
EDIT - ERROR WILL ROBINSON!! The coolant goes in those tubes. The ID is about 0.7mm.