M3P - Who switched from a (true) sports car?

[tm1v2]

Well the price difference isn't that great frankly, comparing various versions of the Model 3 to comparable sport sedans. And that price difference will be more than eaten up by the difference in maintenance and repair costs,which and the longer you keep and operate the car and the greater your mileage the more of those types of technologies will separate in terms of the bottom line. So actually the EV is cheaper over the long run. Our cost per mile including the cost of solar panels amortized over 10 years works out to ~$0.08-0.10 a mile. That's just untouchable in any ice technology.

I'm just saying, I think if anyone were to build an EV today with full M3P level drivetrain performance, and supercharger network investment, *and* better seats, suspension, wheels, etc...it would be notably more expensive. I probably would've bought it though.

I think the best comparison right now is the Polestar 2 with Performance Pack. Excellent stock suspension, forged wheels, better seats than M3P, more solid interior, etc. The drivetrain is solid too, very close to M3LR performance, and good thermal management. Good car. However if you also add the Pilot and Plus packs to match M3P standard features, it's significantly more expensive. And the range is a bit lower and no supercharging, and missing a lot of Tesla software feature goodness. Only the federal tax rebate makes it price competitive.

I think we're not too far away from good EVs that truly match ICE in all aspects at the same price point, but we're not quite there yet. Just my opinion!

 

[Deep Purple]

I'm just saying, I think if anyone were to build an EV today with full M3P level drivetrain performance, and supercharger network investment, *and* better seats, suspension, wheels, etc...it would be notably more expensive. I probably would've bought it though.

I do wonder if in the next 3-5 years we will have many competitors who offer similar offerings. Tesla is ahead in basically all the infrastructure and battery things but behind in seats, suspension, wheels...

I do wonder if VW figures out how to drop a A4 like chassis on top of the Taycan and suddenly we have more options.

I don't intend on leaving Tesla at the moment, but we all benefit from greater competition.

 

[dfwatt]

I do wonder if in the next 3-5 years we will have many competitors who offer similar offerings. Tesla is ahead in basically all the infrastructure and battery things but behind in seats, suspension, wheels...

I do wonder if VW figures out how to drop a A4 like chassis on top of the Taycan and suddenly we have more options.

I don't intend on leaving Tesla at the moment, but we all benefit from greater competition.

It would be a bad mistake to think that while competitors are scrambling to catch up with Tesla in terms of Battery Technology, range and so forth that Tesla is going to be standing still. I actually think that their lead in Battery Technology is going to increase over time with the 4680 cell, and with the continued and accelerated build out of the supercharger Network. Indeed other brands will have as an advertising note that they are going to be able to use Tesla Supercharger Network but probably at a premium with that cost difference a point in Tesla's favor. So rather than the gaps closing in a relationship to critical technology issues I think they're possibly going to increase. But I agree that competition will make everybody better

 

[jackmott]

Yes I have seen those, which would be expected even if the peak power of 1000 tapers down to 900 at higher speed.

You haven't seen videos of Plaid beating almost every single car that goes up against it?

Plaid keeps pulling... and pulling... and pulling

 

[Deep Purple]

It would be a bad mistake to think that while competitors are scrambling to catch up with Tesla in terms of Battery Technology, range and so forth that Tesla is going to be standing still. I actually think that their lead in Battery Technology is going to increase over time with the 4680 cell, and with the continued and accelerated build out of the supercharger Network. Indeed other brands will have as an advertising note that they are going to be able to use Tesla Supercharger Network but probably at a premium. So rather than the gap closing in a relationship to critical technology issues I think it's going to increase. But I agree that competition will make everybody better

And that's fine, but I just wonder what a true electric Mercedes C class or a true Audi A4 e-Tron would do.

I'm not sure battery gains will be enough at Tesla's current price point. Every part of the car which makes it a luxury item has room for improvement.

 

[dfwatt]

And that's fine, but I just wonder what a true electric Mercedes C class or a true Audi A4 e-Tron would do.

I'm not sure battery gains will be enough at Tesla's current price point. Every part of the car which makes it a luxury item has room for improvement.

I'm curious to see an electric Mercedes. I was pretty disappointed in the e-tron when I drove it but that was a while back so maybe they can up their game

 

[Deep Purple]

I'm curious to see an electric Mercedes. I was pretty disappointed in the e-tron when I drove it but that was a while back so maybe they can up their game

Me, too. The world Elon wants is good for consumers, which is to say we have many electric options.

 

[Deep Purple]

This was a surprising review IMHO. Apparently the EQS is magnificent (even though it's ugly). It's definitely not for me but there is definitely some appeal.

 

[drpheta]

This episode sums up the desire for engine notes and transmission control nicely. Speed is speed, but sometimes people want more than just speed.

That said, I'm extremely happy driving my M3P with coilovers and forged wheels. It's the most fun I've had of all my daily drivers.

 

[firstkill]

And that's fine, but I just wonder what a true electric Mercedes C class or a true Audi A4 e-Tron would do.

I'm not sure battery gains will be enough at Tesla's current price point. Every part of the car which makes it a luxury item has room for improvement.

The Audi e-tron is a q5/8 on a battery. It’s heavy/sluggish but interior is legit.

The power train for price still be hard to match for a while from legacy car makers.

 

[Deep Purple]

The Audi e-tron is a q5/8 on a battery. It’s heavy/sluggish but interior is legit.

The power train for price still be hard to match for a while from legacy car makers.

That's nice, but no one cares about that, if I'm honest. Is the range good enough for most users? Yes. Is it better finished than the Tesla? Yes.

It's too expensive but let's not pretend people spend that much time caring about range. Once range is "enough", Tesla will have to compete on things other than battery tech and it is behind in almost every other category.

 

[firstkill]

That's nice, but no one cares about that, if I'm honest. Is the range good enough for most users? Yes. Is it better finished than the Tesla? Yes.

It's too expensive but let's not pretend people spend that much time caring about range. Once range is "enough", Tesla will have to compete on things other than battery tech and it is behind in almost every other category.

Do you own a tesla? It’s a good car for the price point. The interior is fine. Not luxurious. But adequate for the segment.

No one cares? Tesla market cap says otherwise. They are doing something right.

 

[Deep Purple]

Do you own a tesla? It’s a good car for the price point. The interior is fine. Not luxurious. But adequate for the segment.

No one cares? Tesla market cap says otherwise. They are doing something right.

You really think the difference is range? Tesla is a hype machine. There are no equivalent cars at this point that do everything as well as Tesla does (one could argue the Mustang Mach-E is better than the Model Y, but I digress)

As far as luxury, for $60k, it's going to have to be better than "fine"

btw: I wouldn't go around challenging people's Tesla ownership. Not a good look.

 

[dfwatt]

You really think the difference is range? Tesla is a hype machine. There are no equivalent cars at this point that do everything as well as Tesla does (one could argue the Mustang Mach-E is better than the Model Y, but I digress)

As far as luxury, for $60k, it's going to have to be better than "fine"

btw: I wouldn't go around challenging people's Tesla ownership. Not a good look.

Not a good look or not a question you want to answer? Which is it? When somebody makes a whole host of Quasi trolling comments like you've made that's really the question they eventually are guaranteed to get.

 

[Deep Purple]

Not a good look or not a question you want to answer? Which is it?

Not a good look. I make my Tesla ownership fairly obvious.

"Do you own a Tesla?" is not an appropriate response to "I have concerns about my Tesla"

 

[dfwatt]

Not a good look. I make my Tesla ownership fairly obvious.

"Do you own a Tesla?" is not an appropriate response to "I have concerns about my Tesla"

I think statements like "Tesla is a hype machine" are pretty different from "I have concerns about my Tesla" wouldn't you agree?

 

[Deep Purple]

I think statements like "Tesla is a hype machine" are pretty different from "I have concerns about my Tesla" wouldn't you agree?

To be clear, you tried to use sales as a way to justify sub-luxury build quality. Understand the Tesla name has a great deal of hype (think Apple, Rolex). As such, using sales to justify quality issues is not valid.

Hype is not a bad thing. I have never said that. I just made it clear that Tesla has a long way to go in some areas. Not sure why you're so defensive, to be honest.

 

[dfwatt]

To be clear, you tried to use sales as a way to justify sub-luxury build quality. Understand the Tesla name has a great deal of hype (think Apple, Rolex). As such, using sales to justify quality issues is not valid.

Hype is not a bad thing. I have never said that. I just made it clear that Tesla has a long way to go in some areas. Not sure why you're so defensive, to be honest.

Not sure where you ever got the idea that I was using sales to justify other issues? Seems you like to create arguments that aren't there and knock down straw men?

 

[firstkill]

Not a good look. I make my Tesla ownership fairly obvious.

"Do you own a Tesla?" is not an appropriate response to "I have concerns about my Tesla"

it is a valid question in the sense that discussing things with someone requires to know their understanding of the product.

Tesla’s has a long way to go with production. Their interior design and material choices can also be improved upon.

I want real leather and a leather dash and leather door panels. Aluminum switches/dials. Loaded with carbon fiber but I don’t think I’d pay for them in this car though.

Most entry level luxury cars have the same soft touch plastic dash. Hard plastic lower doors. But comparing the interior to a sports car the Tesla is pretty decent at the price point.

This thread was about swapping from a sports car. So interior being average is okay. The interior and storage is the last thing I look at in a sports car.

With my driving style.
Power/accelerations is good
Brakes fade even on fast canyons.
A lot of Weight transfer in turns but exit grip is good.

Capable car. But lacks wheel and chassis feed back. A good all in one solution if one can only have 1 car.

 

[BigNick]

I don't disagree with you as it relates to the merits of EV tech but so far there are no affordable performance EVs that I find exciting to drive. I own both an SR+ and M3P and they make great daily drivers but I would not called them exciting to drive. I am referring to more than just performance numbers. I am referring to interior and exterior styling, seating position, suspension, steering feel, and overall driving dynamics. IMO, performance ICE based vehicles still offer more driving engagement. At the moment you can still get a manual, DCT trans with paddles, convertible and yes the exhaust note and vibration you get from a performance engine is a big part of the experience. Just look at the new Corvette Z06 with the flat plane crank engine, they are highly desirable and if you get in line now you will probably get one in 2-3 years. The powertrain is at the heart of a performance vehicle and I find it hard to get excited about a couple electric motors that Tesla doesn't share much info about.

I am sure eventually manufacturers will build more performance oriented EVs catered to enthusiasts but is is going to take a while. It looks like Dodge is the most committed to fun to drive EVs at the moment. We shall see come 2024 what they have in store.

Think of a RWD EV, with all its instantaneous torque, backed by a four-on-the-floor or a paddle-shifted dual-clutch DSG. No need for carbon fiber wraps to allow the motor to spin at 20K+ RPM, more efficiency at high speeds and more driving engagement.

Probably would require F1 tech in the gearbox, so forget about affordable.