A screen print option that saves a PNG file or similar to the USB drive would be nice!
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Major Phantom Braking Issues
- Thread starter LucLamma
- Start date
Model S P100D, Purchased 12/2017, HW 3.0 upgrade, FSD option (which I don't use because it performs so poorly)
When I purchased, I thought SW updates were going to be good thing, and for the first 4 years or so they were. In the last 18 months, updates have made TACC worse and worse. The latest update, 2023.7.10 has made TACC all but unusable and has ruined my car. TACC was once very good and, honestly, was one of the main reasons I bought the car. I once used TACC (and Autosteer) almost continuously every day on my daily commute and on trips. My Model S was hands down my preferred long-distance car because of TACC and Autosteer. Even my non-tech wife loved it. On our last long trip, it broke my heart to leave the Model S in the garage. We took my wife's Hyundai SUV, because its version of TACC now performs MUCH better than my $140K Tesla.
TACC is not safe. When a car drives in a way that is unexpected to other drivers, it creates a potential for a collision. Phantom braking is a big problem. I, too, have almost been rear-ended multiple times. Some brakes are so dramatic that they they send items on the seat flying in the air, and I know I would be rear-ended if someone was behind me. With the latest update, it's much worse. I would call it "phantom deceleration" (PD). For example, there's one place on my daily commute where the speed limit is 55. I'm using TACC and Autosteer set to 60 on a 4-lane road. PD slows the car quickly to 35, every time! My best guess is that it sees the small orange road cones on the side of the road (in the grass, about 20 feed from the edge of the road). On another 4-lane road, PD slows from 50 to 35. No cones anywhere this time. My guess is the yellow lines in the middle of the road just before a left-hand turn lane. Again, likely I would get hit if someone was behind me. In my 18 min drive to/from work, PD occurs at least 10 times every trip. I frequently have to fully disengage TACC/AP. My wife's Hyundai SUV does not have ANY of these problems.
TACC causes traffic congestion. Two of the biggest causes of traffic congestion are (1) cars accelerating too slowly when a light turns green (which limits the number of cars that can get through an intersection before the next red), and (2) excessive spacing between cars in traffic. TACC is HORRIBLE in both cases. (1) When the light turns green, my car accelerates VERY slowly. I always have to manually accelerate, which means I can no longer use TACC in stop and go traffic. (Performance in stop/go traffic used to be one of the features I liked best about TACC). (2) If I come up on a car driving more slowly, I'm happy with the distance TACC puts between me and the car ahead. But, when the car ahead accelerates, my car always accelerates very slowly, opening up a huge distance between me and the car ahead. I always have to manually accelerate. Bottom line, TACC is only useful if there are no other cars on the road. If I am in traffic, I am CONTINUOSLY having to accelerate manually. I.e. TACC is all but useless. My wife's Hyundai SUV is not great in this category either, but it's better than my Model S.
TACC gives a very uncomfortable ride. Phantom braking and PD make for a very uncomfortable ride. Also, "normal" braking is not smooth at all. The worst is when I am coming up on a car that is stopped at a red light. The car brakes very abruptly. I now almost always disengage TACC when approaching cars that are moving slowly or stopped. If I forget, my wife asks me to disengage. The way my car brakes upsets her stomach. My wife's Hyundai SUV always brakes smoothy in every situation. It is 10x better than my Model S.
Since this has been going on for over a year and because it gets worse with nearly every update, someone at Tesla apparently thinks this kind of performance is desirable. If this is the case, I fear there's little chance that it will ever get any better. Given this, as much as this kills me, I will very likely sell my Model S. I once loved my car and loved driving it. Now, I can't stand driving it. It is unlikely that I will EVER buy another car that updates it's software like this. The software updates have ruined my car. Tesla has stolen my car from me.
I would like to complain to Tesla and see if they recognize the issues that we are all having and if they intend to fix them. Does anyone know of a way to reach them?
When I purchased, I thought SW updates were going to be good thing, and for the first 4 years or so they were. In the last 18 months, updates have made TACC worse and worse. The latest update, 2023.7.10 has made TACC all but unusable and has ruined my car. TACC was once very good and, honestly, was one of the main reasons I bought the car. I once used TACC (and Autosteer) almost continuously every day on my daily commute and on trips. My Model S was hands down my preferred long-distance car because of TACC and Autosteer. Even my non-tech wife loved it. On our last long trip, it broke my heart to leave the Model S in the garage. We took my wife's Hyundai SUV, because its version of TACC now performs MUCH better than my $140K Tesla.
TACC is not safe. When a car drives in a way that is unexpected to other drivers, it creates a potential for a collision. Phantom braking is a big problem. I, too, have almost been rear-ended multiple times. Some brakes are so dramatic that they they send items on the seat flying in the air, and I know I would be rear-ended if someone was behind me. With the latest update, it's much worse. I would call it "phantom deceleration" (PD). For example, there's one place on my daily commute where the speed limit is 55. I'm using TACC and Autosteer set to 60 on a 4-lane road. PD slows the car quickly to 35, every time! My best guess is that it sees the small orange road cones on the side of the road (in the grass, about 20 feed from the edge of the road). On another 4-lane road, PD slows from 50 to 35. No cones anywhere this time. My guess is the yellow lines in the middle of the road just before a left-hand turn lane. Again, likely I would get hit if someone was behind me. In my 18 min drive to/from work, PD occurs at least 10 times every trip. I frequently have to fully disengage TACC/AP. My wife's Hyundai SUV does not have ANY of these problems.
TACC causes traffic congestion. Two of the biggest causes of traffic congestion are (1) cars accelerating too slowly when a light turns green (which limits the number of cars that can get through an intersection before the next red), and (2) excessive spacing between cars in traffic. TACC is HORRIBLE in both cases. (1) When the light turns green, my car accelerates VERY slowly. I always have to manually accelerate, which means I can no longer use TACC in stop and go traffic. (Performance in stop/go traffic used to be one of the features I liked best about TACC). (2) If I come up on a car driving more slowly, I'm happy with the distance TACC puts between me and the car ahead. But, when the car ahead accelerates, my car always accelerates very slowly, opening up a huge distance between me and the car ahead. I always have to manually accelerate. Bottom line, TACC is only useful if there are no other cars on the road. If I am in traffic, I am CONTINUOSLY having to accelerate manually. I.e. TACC is all but useless. My wife's Hyundai SUV is not great in this category either, but it's better than my Model S.
TACC gives a very uncomfortable ride. Phantom braking and PD make for a very uncomfortable ride. Also, "normal" braking is not smooth at all. The worst is when I am coming up on a car that is stopped at a red light. The car brakes very abruptly. I now almost always disengage TACC when approaching cars that are moving slowly or stopped. If I forget, my wife asks me to disengage. The way my car brakes upsets her stomach. My wife's Hyundai SUV always brakes smoothy in every situation. It is 10x better than my Model S.
Since this has been going on for over a year and because it gets worse with nearly every update, someone at Tesla apparently thinks this kind of performance is desirable. If this is the case, I fear there's little chance that it will ever get any better. Given this, as much as this kills me, I will very likely sell my Model S. I once loved my car and loved driving it. Now, I can't stand driving it. It is unlikely that I will EVER buy another car that updates it's software like this. The software updates have ruined my car. Tesla has stolen my car from me.
I would like to complain to Tesla and see if they recognize the issues that we are all having and if they intend to fix them. Does anyone know of a way to reach them?
zoomer0056
Active Member
There aren't automatic updates. You have to click install for the update to happen. Standard setting is for software that's been in other cars already and has bugs worked out. Advanced lets you get potentially buggy, beta software that will be tested on your car.
I am standard and always look forward to updates.
Curious: 1) what was your following distance setting? 2) what was recorded in the log/alerts file (I think it is the bell icon in upper left on Car Settings screen)?
All software is buggy. Software undergoing beta testing is guaranteed to be pretty buggy. Thus the need for testing.
The car does not automatically update. It will automatically download new software, but requires you to initiate the installation of the software.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I will note however it will keep nagging you to schedule an update, but you can easily close the window every time. However, some people may accidentally press to schedule one. If that happens, it's possible to cancel the schedule by telling it to begin the update and then cancelling it before the timer ends. Then the nag comes back and schedule is cancelled.
OxBrew
Active Member
I just had an hour of stop and go traffic, 0-35 mph, and TACC was phenomenal. Didn't have to touch the brake or accelerator for an hour. Couple times I adjusted the follow distance from 7 to 4 to get more assertive launches from a stop, but either way was fine.
Excessive gaps in traffic does not cause congestion. Too many cars for the lane causes congestion, and that's it. Good gaps actually easy congestion, because fewer people have to hit their brakes.
Excessive gaps in traffic does not cause congestion. Too many cars for the lane causes congestion, and that's it. Good gaps actually easy congestion, because fewer people have to hit their brakes.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Truly excessive gaps do make congestion worse (by reducing traffic capacity per a given road), as does too little gap (which causes start-stop ripples that reduces traffic flow).
Do drivers who keep extremely huge gaps between their car and the car in front of them in heavy, very slow stop-and-go traffic cause the ...
The thing is TACC does not give excessive gaps. Even set to 7, it's basically what is considered a "normal" gap. But most people space their cars much closer, so they feel it is excessive. In reality most people don't allow a long enough following distance, especially in stop/go traffic, which necessitates continual stopping and starting (accelerating and braking extensively). TACC does attempt to reduce this but is not absolutely perfect. A perfect system would be able to keep the car rolling at the same average speed as the traffic (allowing the distance to the car in front to vary naturally) and basically never have to come to a stop even in stop and go traffic.
An excessive gap is generally formed if the car tries to maintain a gap of a given length instead of trying to match the average flow of traffic. For example they are following exactly 6 car lengths from the car in front, and works to maintain that distance even when traffic has slowed (and a shorter distance is more appropriate). This means the ripple effect of stop/start is still passed along to the cars behind, but then the gap means less cars can fit.
I don't think you can make that conclusion. I personally don't have to disengage or not use TACC because of two lane roads. Every road is different...Now is there a section of 2 lane road where my car slows down and puts on the turn signal wanting to turn into the woods, sure, it doesn't actually attempt the turn by the way and realized the mistake. In this case I can just abort the turn signal and press on the accelerator a bit to get past the section.
Another spot is on a divided highway where the car USED to slow down on a certain curve for no reason, every time. It was fixed with my last update.
No you cannot disable regenerative braking...well you can but you would have to cold soak your battery. So from an experimental standpoint you can do this to check what is happening on sudden slowdowns..IF they are repeatable. If you have an area where the car always or almost always slows down then you can put the tip of your foot under the brake pedal and hold a bit of upward pressure. When there is a slowdown if it used the brake you will feel the brake pedal being depressed....I'll give you the answer though...the brake pedal isn't being activated, unless it is an AEB activation(warning on display and audible alert), OR you have blended braking turned on.
Yes, the brake lights are activated in two ways, by physical brake activation as well as a g-force sensor. Both of these modes of brake light activation are accounted for in the national vehicle safety standards.
OxBrew
Active Member
Thanks for the more nuanced explanation, agree with everything you say.
Stepping back one level, I still say it's all just too many cars for the lane. There will always be a percentage of distracted drivers leaving too big a gap, that's part of the capacity.
If the lane is slowing below the speed limit, the capacity of the lane (to maintain the speed limit) is exceeded.
Back to PB: Just drove Spokane to Seattle and did have one PB event, that tracked with what someone else observed here or another thread: There was a big rig way in the distance, at the limit of what the cameras could parse, otherwise empty highway, truck flickered a couple times on the screen, had a couple full regen slow downs from 75 to 65 before I hit the go pedal. Happened 3x, stopped when I got closer to the truck and car fully resolved it.
Still drives great through massive mirages, low angle sun, full downpour rain. First PB on this release, and about 3-4k miles, wildly varying conditions.
I had a hard automatic breaking event at approximately 80 mph two days ago on my 2023 Model 3 RWD. It was very scary and I am completely worried about being hit hard from behind if being followed too closely on the highway. I have had the car only a few weeks, but do not see radar sensors on the front. What if a bug hits the camera ? Does anyone think this could cause it?
Many many PB events since 2018 with my foot under the brake pedal, or SMT data logging....no physical brake activation detected physically or logged on OBDII data stream.
Applying the blended brakes option may change the behavior however.
My PBs sometime seem harder than just regen and the bar gets fuller than I recall it doing with just regen I guess maybe it could be regenning harder that it does under normal conditions. Ultimately it doesn't really matter I dont think, slowing down from 75 to 40 is slowing down from 75 to 40 whether its from regen or regen+friction.
zoomer0056
Active Member
I agree. I also think the regen braking available to us humans is significantly reduced as compared to what the car can do on its own.
I kind of look at deceleration rate as an important metric as well. Just saying it slowed down from 75-40 isn't really the whole story, how fast did it do it? Dropping your speed from 75-40 (76%) in half a second(average human reaction time) or even 1 second, is pretty quick and could bring in other questions.
I agree, and the deceleration curve definitely could be different as well. Hmm.., I need to find a strong repetitive PB spot and plot the deceleration and compare it to a normal foot off the accelerator.
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