Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[gearchruncher]

Two plaid motors (both with carbon sleeved rotors) in the upcoming Performance Highland trim?! See video attached below. Still speculation of course, but man, I hope this will come true.

Complete speculation, he's just "hoping." He says three motors from the plaid many times, but at 6:00 he literally says "apparently, it will have two motors instead of the tri motor."

I mean, come on, he knows 100% that the performance will be two motors, the German documents say so. He then quotes the same 80HP increase that I pointed out earlier, and acknowledges the CURRENT car is already faster than the Mach-E, Hyundai. etc.

This is all just clickbait and rambling, for something that he hopes is true (like all of us) but is devoid of any new information.

And of course, everyone happily ignores the fact that the Model 3 battery (known to be unchanged for the highland) flat out can't do much more power. 1200A * 350V is 420kW / 563HP. The best we can do here is sustain this power at higher speeds.

 

[GreenHokie]

Complete speculation, he's just "hoping." He says three motors from the plaid many times, but at 6:00 he literally says "apparently, it will have two motors instead of the tri motor."

I mean, come on, he knows 100% that the performance will be two motors, the German documents say so. He then quotes the same 80HP increase that I pointed out earlier, and acknowledges the CURRENT car is already faster than the Mach-E, Hyundai. etc.

This is all just clickbait and rambling, for something that he hopes is true (like all of us) but is devoid of any new information.

And of course, everyone happily ignores the fact that the Model 3 battery (known to be unchanged for the highland) flat out can't do much more power. 1200A * 350V is 420kW / 563HP. The best we can do here is sustain this power at higher speeds.

Yep, we are all hoping. That is why this is a SPECULATION thread, and not a factual one where everything that anyone posts or says on this thread needs to be scrutinized to ad nauseam. Relax bro, we are all just speculating and not stating any facts that need to be proven…..

 

[GreenHokie]

I mean, come on, he knows 100% that the performance will be two motors, the German documents say so.

Yes, the general consensus is Tesla will continue to stick with just a dual motor set-up for the refresh Model 3 Performance trim. I think the part that is a little different & more significant (which you may have missed when looking at that video) is now he is saying/speculating that both of the motors will have the carbon sleeved rotors (in other words, both motors will be “plaid” motors). Previously, it was speculated that only one of the two motors would have the carbon sleeved rotors.

It’s fun to speculate/hope, yes?

 

[gearchruncher]

I think the part that is a little different & more significant (which you may have missed when looking at that video) is now he is saying/speculating that both of the motors will have the carbon sleeved rotors (in other words, both motors will be “plaid” motors).

Right, which is why the docs we have seen so far show a 3D3/ 3D7 motor combo for the AWD car, but a 3D3 / 5D1 motor combo in the performance model, and the 3D3 is already a motor they make - it's the one in the front of a Model 3 AWD or M3P today.

And of course why the docs only mention a "Base motor (600A rear)" or "Performance Motor (800A rear)". Because clearly the front motor also changed, it's just not mentioned.

And of course why the docs list the same battery for all the cars.

Speculation is fun, but it gets silly when we have the docs down to part numbers.

Oh, and let's not forget that 80 HP number. So the whole car has 40 more HP per axle? They built a whole new motor for that and that's all they could get out of the Plaid motors, despite them being 200HP more than M3P rear drive units already?

More HP in the front axle is in the wrong place. If you've got battery power to spare, you want it on the rear axle, and a single Plaid motor is already 350kW / 480HP. Why would they up the front axle power when it can already do 184HP and we're only claiming ~600 HP total? It makes no sense.

Here's my "speculation" - 1200A, 350V battery. 1100A usable. That's 385kW vs the 340kW we get today. That's 60HP more. This will drop 0-60 to 2.9 seconds. This will all be in the rear axle, increasing power from 202kW to ~250kW. The rear motor will be "better" and will be able to maintain a full 250kW to 100MPH+, while the front axle will fall off at the same 40 MPH we see today. This will make a much faster car 0-100 MPH, and the only change they needed to make was a single motor while maintaining the same battery, front drive unit, and the rear inverter (Plaid inverters are already M3 rear DU inverters).

You know, exactly like the original M3P did, and all the docs we have seen so far indicate.

 

[pdx_m3s]

Even if Tesla just replaced the rear motor with a carbon sleeved Plaid motor, it would be an extra ~70HP. That's significant.

 

[terranx]

Even if Tesla just replaced the rear motor with a carbon sleeved Plaid motor, it would be an extra ~70HP. That's significant.

And arguably the flatter power curve would be far more useful than a peak HP increase anyway

 

[gearchruncher]

Even if Tesla just replaced the rear motor with a carbon sleeved Plaid motor, it would be an extra ~70HP. That's significant.

Where do you get this number? The current M3P rear motor is 202kW. The rear Plaid motors are 300kW+ each. That's a gap of 130HP, not 70HP.

 

[pdx_m3s]

Where do you get this number? The current M3P rear motor is 202kW. The rear Plaid motors are 300kW+ each. That's a gap of 130HP, not 70HP.

202kW = 270HP
Plaid has 1,020HP / 3 = 340HP

+70HP

 

[gearchruncher]

Plaid has 1,020HP / 3 = 340HP

The front motor in the Plaid is not the same as the rear motors. This says it's basically a Model 3 Rear motor:

Watch Dissection Of Tesla Model S Plaid Front Drive Unit

Ingineerix continues its teardown series with the Tesla Model S Plaid, which already includes the battery pack and the rear dual-motor drive unit.

insideevs.com

So it's 202kW / 270HP. Thus the rear motors are about 375HP each.

In an AWD vehicle that can accelerate at over 1G, you can't use 1/3 of you HP on the front axle since there is so little weight on it. The Lucid Air Sapphire added about 100 HP to the car but decreased the quarter mile from 9.9 to 9.1 because what it actually added was a ton of HP to the rear axle and then reduced the front axle power because it couldn't use that front axle anyway due to no grip:

But reminder- we won't get 375HP on the rear axle from a Plaid drive unit because our battery is limited. Same reason throwing another 300 HP on the back of a Lucid only increased the HP by about 90, and why Tesla lost a lawsuit over the P85D having "691HP"- the battery is the limit to total power, not the sum of motors. So 60-70HP more is a good guess, but that's because the battery maxes out there. The nice thing is that maybe we can dump all 375 HP on the back axle and do it up to 100 MPH+.

 

[Lets go Plaid]

If they can get this car into the high 2's for 0 to 60 keeping the power on through to 100MPH. give it decent brakes and suspension they'll sell a ton of them.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Here's my "speculation" - 1200A, 350V battery. 1100A usable. That's 385kW vs the 340kW we get today. That's 60HP more. This will drop 0-60 to 2.9 seconds. This will all be in the rear axle, increasing power from 202kW to ~250kW. The rear motor will be "better" and will be able to maintain a full 250kW to 100MPH+, while the front axle will fall off at the same 40 MPH we see today. This will make a much faster car 0-100 MPH, and the only change they needed to make was a single motor

I agree this is the logical strategy. A small change to the rear rotor that is either Plaid or Argyle to hold power at higher speeds. BTW the front motor peaks at 55mph, not 40 mph, so it's already pretty good for street racing. And my car sends over 1300A to flatline at 420kW - what do you mean about "1100A usable" current and "340kW"?

The front motor in the Plaid is not the same as the rear motors. This says it's basically a Model 3 Rear motor:

The Plaid uses Model 3/Y rear motors in both front and rear positions:

But reminder- we won't get 375HP on the rear axle from a Plaid drive unit because our battery is limited.

Tesla has changed batteries on the 3P since introduction without updating performance specs, so it's possible that the newer batteries have more power available than the inverter/software can utilize in this generation.

 

[Tiger]

Just curious why you are comparing/cross-shopping a MX Plaid versus the upcoming M3P? Obviously, two completely different vehicle classes/segments. Not hatin, just curious. We all have our reasons…

Not cross shopping. I have an Interim M3LR because Plaid delayed deliveries for couple years. Originally I wanted 7 seat MXP so 6 seat is almost already same as 5 seat M3 /s Anyways, the MXP is so overpriced in the EU that the only way I could justify it is if it was faster than M3P. If M3P is faster then I'll just put a ski box on the roof for cargo and tell additional passengers to take a Taxi

 

[pdx_m3s]

The front motor in the Plaid is not the same as the rear motors. This says it's basically a Model 3 Rear motor:

Watch Dissection Of Tesla Model S Plaid Front Drive Unit

Ingineerix continues its teardown series with the Tesla Model S Plaid, which already includes the battery pack and the rear dual-motor drive unit.

insideevs.com

So it's 202kW / 270HP. Thus the rear motors are about 375HP each.

In an AWD vehicle that can accelerate at over 1G, you can't use 1/3 of you HP on the front axle since there is so little weight on it. The Lucid Air Sapphire added about 100 HP to the car but decreased the quarter mile from 9.9 to 9.1 because what it actually added was a ton of HP to the rear axle and then reduced the front axle power because it couldn't use that front axle anyway due to no grip:

But reminder- we won't get 375HP on the rear axle from a Plaid drive unit because our battery is limited. Same reason throwing another 300 HP on the back of a Lucid only increased the HP by about 90, and why Tesla lost a lawsuit over the P85D having "691HP"- the battery is the limit to total power, not the sum of motors. So 60-70HP more is a good guess, but that's because the battery maxes out there. The nice thing is that maybe we can dump all 375 HP on the back axle and do it up to 100 MPH+.

Good to know. Thanks for the info!

 

[terranx]

The front motor in the Plaid is not the same as the rear motors. This says it's basically a Model 3 Rear motor:

Watch Dissection Of Tesla Model S Plaid Front Drive Unit

Ingineerix continues its teardown series with the Tesla Model S Plaid, which already includes the battery pack and the rear dual-motor drive unit.

insideevs.com

So it's 202kW / 270HP. Thus the rear motors are about 375HP each.

In an AWD vehicle that can accelerate at over 1G, you can't use 1/3 of you HP on the front axle since there is so little weight on it. The Lucid Air Sapphire added about 100 HP to the car but decreased the quarter mile from 9.9 to 9.1 because what it actually added was a ton of HP to the rear axle and then reduced the front axle power because it couldn't use that front axle anyway due to no grip:

But reminder- we won't get 375HP on the rear axle from a Plaid drive unit because our battery is limited. Same reason throwing another 300 HP on the back of a Lucid only increased the HP by about 90, and why Tesla lost a lawsuit over the P85D having "691HP"- the battery is the limit to total power, not the sum of motors. So 60-70HP more is a good guess, but that's because the battery maxes out there. The nice thing is that maybe we can dump all 375 HP on the back axle and do it up to 100 MPH+.

The plaid’s higher voltage should mean that front motor makes more power than it does in a 3 (assuming same or more current being sent), the the split is probably different than what you’re saying. Likewise a plaid motor on the 3 will make less power before even taking the current limitation into account

 

[MagnusMako]

Good to know. Thanks for the info!

You should never assume front and rear motors on a Tesla are identical power output. Especially in a tri-motor setup.

 

[pdx_m3s]

The front motor in the Plaid is not the same as the rear motors. This says it's basically a Model 3 Rear motor:

Watch Dissection Of Tesla Model S Plaid Front Drive Unit

Ingineerix continues its teardown series with the Tesla Model S Plaid, which already includes the battery pack and the rear dual-motor drive unit.

insideevs.com

So it's 202kW / 270HP. Thus the rear motors are about 375HP each.

In an AWD vehicle that can accelerate at over 1G, you can't use 1/3 of you HP on the front axle since there is so little weight on it. The Lucid Air Sapphire added about 100 HP to the car but decreased the quarter mile from 9.9 to 9.1 because what it actually added was a ton of HP to the rear axle and then reduced the front axle power because it couldn't use that front axle anyway due to no grip:

But reminder- we won't get 375HP on the rear axle from a Plaid drive unit because our battery is limited. Same reason throwing another 300 HP on the back of a Lucid only increased the HP by about 90, and why Tesla lost a lawsuit over the P85D having "691HP"- the battery is the limit to total power, not the sum of motors. So 60-70HP more is a good guess, but that's because the battery maxes out there. The nice thing is that maybe we can dump all 375 HP on the back axle and do it up to 100 MPH+.

What's the max power output the current Panasonic 2170 pack can sustain?

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

The battery's max power capability is basically whatever Tesla wants it to be for warranty purposes. Panasonic gives the cell a suggested limit but they don't even pretend to be scientific or precise about it, they just simplify the approximation to a whole-number "C" rating and it's up to us to perform all the real-world testing and deliver the data to Tesla.

Tesla then evaluates the degradation trends and decides whether or not to push the cell harder with each software update. They collect billions of data points for every imaginable combination of cell temperature, SOC, age, etc. then fine-tune the pack's maximum power limit for each condition. Panasonic does not have the capability to perform such data collection and analysis, nor does LG, Ford, Hyundai, BYD, or anyone else.

As of today, Tesla's discharge limit on the ~5Ah Panasonic cell is around 5.6C for a total output of ~420kW.

 

[jose3030]

Front plaid motor is going to the back of the new Model 3.

 

[Tiger]

Front plaid motor is going to the back of the new Model 3.

I gues that won't do much, they have almost same power. It was difficult to find power curve vs rpm comparison chart for these motors to see if they give any difference to low or high end acceleration. Anyone fond such curves for the Plaid front and M3P rear?

Though now I notice the quote above "The Plaid uses Model 3/Y rear motors in both front and rear positions" so it would be no change, same motor?

 

[stopcrazypp]

I gues that won't do much, they have almost same power. It was difficult to find power curve vs rpm comparison chart for these motors to see if they give any difference to low or high end acceleration. Anyone fond such curves for the Plaid front and M3P rear?

Though now I notice the quote above "The Plaid uses Model 3/Y rear motors in both front and rear positions" so it would be no change, same motor?

That characterization is extremely misleading. It uses the same stator and inverter as the Model 3/Y, but the rotor (carbon sleeved) and housing (designed to accommodate dual motor in rear) is completely different. Most people would not call that the "same motor".