Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[Olle]

Agree. 0-50mph is already fast enough. What we need is better 50-80. Higher pack voltage would go a long ways at solving this.

Higher pack voltage has been mentioned time and time again as a solution to high speed acceleration in this thread. It is true that back EMF increases with speed and that higher pack voltage could overcome this. As @gearcruncher and others have repeatedly mentioned, different packs may not be in the cards due to the cost. The new S/X is a good example. Same pack for all versions. One of many drawbacks with just raising the voltage is that regen becomes less efficient.

I think that if more voltage pack voltage to overcome back EMF is what they need, it's much cheaper to lower the motor voltage by changing the stator winding in the rear motor. Tesla is already using different windings in the carbon sleeve motors, one for the 900V version in the trucks and another for the Plaid.
In this scenario the front motor can remain as is and fill in some of the regen gaps where a re wound low voltage rear motor is less efficient. The rear motor, being a reluctance PM machine, actually has two efficiency bands, one at lower speeds where the load angle causes the torque to rely on stator field and the rotor's permanent magnets and another one at high speed where the stator field cancels the PM field and where the torque instead relies mostly on the rotor's reluctance field.

 

[gearchruncher]

@Olle - A lot of what you mention is reasonable, but it misses the fact that Tesla has already solved the issue we are discussing in the Plaid, and it isn't with higher voltage.

Model 3 runs 350V nominal voltage, and power starts falling off at 50 MPH. 50 MPH is 5,700 stator RPM in a Model 3.
Model S Plaid runs 402V nominal, and power stays flat from 60 MPH to 200 MPH. 60 MPH is 5,400 stator RPM in a Plaid

Clearly the ability to go from 60-200 with no power drop vs having a power drop at 50 MPH onward is not just because of 18% more voltage.

Plaid runs a carbon overwrapped motor in order to support a different magnetic design, and to limit stator-rotor gap. This overall design highly reduces back EMF, and allows a flat power rating to very high RPM. This is more than just "different windings"

Clearly Tesla has done the work and decided that better motor design is a better solution to maintaining power at higher RPM than using voltage.

Two questions:

One of many drawbacks with just raising the voltage is that regen becomes less efficient.

Why?

In this scenario the front motor can remain as is and fill in some of the regen gaps where a re wound low voltage rear motor is less efficient. The rear motor, being a reluctance PM machine,

Tesla is using PMSRM in both the front and rear of the Plaid though, and the only difference is the gear ratio. The Model 3 also basically only uses the front axle for regen, and they seem to really avoid wanting to do regen on rear axles when they can avoid it.

 

[terranx]

^ what’s interesting is even the MS LR shows a vastly improved power curve compared to the old motors. If Tesla didn’t want to add the expense of the carbon overwrap, the LR motors would likely also work well to 150mph or so

 

[mpgxsvcd]

^ what’s interesting is even the MS LR shows a vastly improved power curve compared to the old motors. If Tesla didn’t want to add the expense of the carbon overwrap, the LR motors would likely also work well to 150mph or so

Two Model S LR motors in a Model 3, with 275/30/20 rear tires, and a proper launch mode is what I think the Model 3 Ludicrous will be. Probably good for 10.4 @ 128+ mph and 0-60 mph in 2.4 seconds. That is my prediction at least.

 

[gearchruncher]

They could easily get the Model 3 into the 10s for 1/4 mile and well below 3.0 for 0-60 mph simply by adding a proper launch control.

I'll say that I'm personally completely uninterested in launch control, and one of the things I love about the Model 3 is that it doesn't use it to get the performance it has.

Launch control is great in drags. But you can't really use it on the street, and for any non-drag performance driving, it doesn't apply.

I want a car that is just fast at every stop light if I stomp it, quick out of 15 MPH tight corners, and pulls hard at 90 MPH. None of that benefits from LC.

Not against having it, but if all they did was add LC and that made the car 2.9 0-60 vs 3.2, it wouldn't matter to me at all since it's still the same car from 5-150 MPH.

That might be the one place that I agree that 0-60 is a pointless metric, if you have a 2.6 with LC and 3.5 without like some turbo cars do.

 

[Park2670]

@Olle The Model 3 also basically only uses the front axle for regen, and they seem to really avoid wanting to do regen on rear axles when they can avoid it.

My 2022 Performance Model 3 only uses the rear motor for regen.

 

[gearchruncher]

My 2022 Performance Model 3 only uses the rear motor for regen.

Ugh, you're right, I meant rear, not front.

 

[dsgerbc]

Ugh, you're right, I meant rear, not front.

On the street, sure. It does too much front regen in autox/track mode on, and I couldn't figure out how to make it use more rear for better cornering.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

The Model 3 almost always uses the rear motor for regen (and accel) but it definitely does use the front motor sometimes for either, with a strategy that is far more complex than simple need would suggest.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

I'll say that I'm personally completely uninterested in launch control, and one of the things I love about the Model 3 is that it doesn't use it to get the performance it has.

Launch control is great in drags. But you can't really use it on the street, and for any non-drag performance driving, it doesn't apply.

I want a car that is just fast at every stop light if I stomp it, quick out of 15 MPH tight corners, and pulls hard at 90 MPH. None of that benefits from LC.

Not against having it, but if all they did was add LC and that made the car 2.9 0-60 vs 3.2, it wouldn't matter to me at all since it's still the same car from 5-150 MPH.

That might be the one place that I agree that 0-60 is a pointless metric, if you have a 2.6 with LC and 3.5 without like some turbo cars do.

It is funny because I am the exact opposite. I hate 60-130 mph. I never use that because the cops are so strict here in NC. That is go to jail and have your car seized speed.

It isn’t even really practical at the track either. Only the Plaids are consistently hitting well over 130 mph in the 1/4 mile.

Without air suspension LC can be quick and easy to engage. I could use a S3XY button to engage it instantly at a stop light.

I guess the best of all worlds would be a LC for those that want that and top end acceleration for those that want that. However, that car would be knocking on the 9s for a 1/4 mile. I don’t think they will do that. Perhaps they will though?

 

[ODWms]

What is the benefit of launch control? I love the ‘point & shoot’ nature of our cars the way they are.

 

[gearchruncher]

Without air suspension LC can be quick and easy to engage.

In an electric what would LC even do without air suspension?

I guess it could be like Rivian's which is just to stand on the brake, full throttle, release brake. Maybe nothing else is needed.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

In an electric what would LC even do without air suspension?

I guess it could be like Rivian's which is just to stand on the brake, full throttle, release brake. Maybe nothing else is needed.

I just want the car to brake torque the motors. That alone would make a very significant difference. The Model 3 Performance launches so soft right now especially in stock form.

 

[blrt]

What could we expect for HP?
I hope that it will have 550hp+ and could stay in front in performance from its competitors sport ev from Kia, Hyundai and M3 awd etc...

 

[jjrandorin]

What could we expect for HP?
I hope that it will have 550hp+ and could stay in front in performance from its competitors sport ev from Kia, Hyundai and M3 awd etc...

(Moderator note)

I merged your newly created thread into the existing 30+ page discussion thread on this topic

 

[blrt]

Two Model S LR motors in a Model 3, with 275/30/20 rear tires, and a proper launch mode is what I think the Model 3 Ludicrous will be. Probably good for 10.4 @ 128+ mph and 0-60 mph in 2.4 seconds. That is my prediction at least.

That would be ideal but I would settle for high 10's or low 11's that wouldn't add to much weight to the car. It has to not drop off in pace above 100 mph.

 

[blrt]

What is the benefit of launch control? I love the ‘point & shoot’ nature of our cars the way they are.

Agreed. I want it to be able to hold its pace in the upper range that will not falls off in the current model.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

What could we expect for HP?
I hope that it will have 550hp+ and could stay in front in performance from its competitors sport ev from Kia, Hyundai and M3 awd etc...

It already has 535+ WHP.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

That would be ideal but I would settle for high 10's or low 11's that wouldn't add to much weight to the car. It has to not drop off in pace above 100 mph.

It is already running low 11s with some weight reductions. They will need to do better than that for it to be worth it.

 

[blrt]

It already has 535+ WHP.

Can't seem to find the definite hp figure. Only base on reviews. And 1/4 mile varies. 11.7 on one of Carwow vids against the BMW M3.