Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[afadeev]

There’s no HW4 in these press cars we’ve seen so far?

Tesla does NOT do press cars.
There is no HW4 in new Model 3 Highlands coming off the production line in China that has launched in China and for Europe.

Well now we’ve got some people calling HW4 in the Model Y HW3.5 since it includes less memory and storage than HW3 and no radar or front camera. I wonder if it really does have HW4, but people are just saying it doesn’t because it doesn’t match what they had in mind for HW4. As far as I’m concerned, if it has the HW4 self driving computer, it’s HW4, even if there’s no radar and the infotainment memory and storage are downgraded.

HW4, by definition, has meaning only to the extent that it enable new AP/FSD functionality that was thereafter not available.
Similar to how HW3 went into production in late 2018 and was supposed to support FSD functionality (a claim that turned out to be false), HW4 is supposed to remedy the shortcomings of HW3. If whatever is installed in TM3 Highland falls short of that capability, it's something less than HW4.

So, what is HW4, as it went into production on Model S and X from earlier in 2023?

• FSD Computer 2, is expected to be about 2-4x faster than Hardware 3. CPU core count is going up from 12 to 20 per side, each with a maximum frequency of 2.35 GHz and an idle speed of 1.37 GHz. The neural network accelerator is also improved, delivering up to 50 TOPS of performance compared to 36 TOPS in HW3.
• A new front-facing camera with higher resolution and wider field of view.
• A new camera on each B-pillar that can see sideways and slightly forward.
• A new camera on each C-pillar that can see sideways and slightly backward.
• A new rear-facing camera with higher resolution and wider field of view.
• A new cabin camera with higher resolution and wider field of view.
• A new camera on each fender that can see behind the vehicle (tbd, rumored)
• Two new cameras on each side of the vehicle that are mounted lower and more forward than before (tbd, rumored)
• A new radar called “Phoenix” that is using the 72 GHz Arbe Phoenix SAR (synthetic aperture radar)

Lack of adequate memory, storage, radar, and 3 front cameras in China manufactured Model 3 Highland certainly remove the possibility of calling in HW4.
HW3.5, maybe, but definitely not hardware complete to support new attempt at FSD functionality, and thus latest Model 3 Highland can't qualify for HW4 designation.

Whether or not this matters, is certainly up for debate.
Neither HW3, HW3.5, nor (likely) HW4 will be supporting FSD as advertised.
Maybe HW 5-42 will?

a

 

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla does NOT do press cars.
There is no HW4 in new Model 3 Highlands coming off the production line in China that has launched in China and for Europe.


HW4, by definition, has meaning only to the extent that it enable new AP/FSD functionality that was thereafter not available.
Similar to how HW3 went into production in late 2018 and was supposed to support FSD functionality (a claim that turned out to be false), HW4 is supposed to remedy the shortcomings of HW3. If whatever is installed in TM3 Highland falls short of that capability, it's something less than HW4.

So, what is HW4, as it went into production on Model S and X from earlier in 2023?

• FSD Computer 2, is expected to be about 2-4x faster than Hardware 3. CPU core count is going up from 12 to 20 per side, each with a maximum frequency of 2.35 GHz and an idle speed of 1.37 GHz. The neural network accelerator is also improved, delivering up to 50 TOPS of performance compared to 36 TOPS in HW3.
• A new front-facing camera with higher resolution and wider field of view.
• A new camera on each B-pillar that can see sideways and slightly forward.
• A new camera on each C-pillar that can see sideways and slightly backward.

This is wrong, there is no C-pillar cameras on the Model S/X/Y with HW4.
The characteristic of the HW4 computer is also highly misleading as it places way too much emphasis on the CPUs, which plays a relatively minor role compared to the NN processors (NPUs) and has drastically less processing power.
I detail the difference here:
Basically while CPUs is about 1.8x the speed of the outgoing, it makes up only 0.379 TFLOPs of processing power vs the NPUs which is 1.5x (3 of them vs 2) the outgoing 105/216 TOPs vs 73/144 TOPs of HW3.
Discussion: HW.4 Suite - Availability, retrofit, suitability etc.

• A new rear-facing camera with higher resolution and wider field of view.
• A new cabin camera with higher resolution and wider field of view.
• A new camera on each fender that can see behind the vehicle (tbd, rumored)

This is also wrong, there are cameras on the fenders just like they were on the original model. There have been no additional new camera positions present in any Model S/X/Y with HW4 so far.

• Two new cameras on each side of the vehicle that are mounted lower and more forward than before (tbd, rumored)
• A new radar called “Phoenix” that is using the 72 GHz Arbe Phoenix SAR (synthetic aperture radar)

Lack of adequate memory, storage, radar, and 3 front cameras in China manufactured Model 3 Highland certainly remove the possibility of calling in HW4.
HW3.5, maybe, but definitely not hardware complete to support new attempt at FSD functionality, and thus latest Model 3 Highland can't qualify for HW4 designation.

Whether or not this matters, is certainly up for debate.
Neither HW3, HW3.5, nor (likely) HW4 will be supporting FSD as advertised.
Maybe HW 5-42 will?

a

The board is all that matters in this particular naming. The current Model Y has half the infotainment memory/storage/no radar, but it very much has HW4. The above article seems to be saying the HW4 board is not present in the current Highlands.

 

[turns2stone]

Tesla does NOT do press cars.

By definition, Tesla let the press drive/review specific Highland cars that the public cannot buy, and does not have access to. Hence, they can literally be defined as ‘press cars’.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Unless there is a new battery, forget about it being significantly quicker.

One of the big issues with Model 3 Performance is power drops off after about 50mph (less power is drawn from the battery as well). This does not happen to nearly as great an extent on Model S Plaid, due to motor improvements they made.

A motor (carbon-sleeved rotor for example) which has flat power to very high speed would be beneficial to Model 3 Performance just as it is for the Plaid.

In terms of off-the-line performance, remember it actually takes very little power (nearly zero) from the battery to generate enormous initial acceleration. You just need the torque - and there is plenty of it at 0 RPM. Power requirements ramp linearly from 0 as speed increases from zero (HP = Torque * RPM). So that 0-30mph (and more like 0-45mph) will not be limited by the pack, either.

There are plenty of plots out there in the public domain showing battery power and power to the wheels, vs speed, etc, measured on the Model 3, and it makes all this clear.

It could be argued that there has not been a Performance model since the LG 5L battery replaced the Panasonic 3L in 2022Q2.

In the US we still get the good stuff. Hopefully that continues. We need all the power here; it is not necessary in UK.

But yeah presumably at some point the power from the battery could limit things to roughly 15% lower than S Plaid. But the car would be lighter…

 

[terranx]

One of the big issues with Model 3 Performance is power drops off after about 50mph (less power is drawn from the battery as well). This does not happen to nearly as great an extent on Model S Plaid, due to motor improvements they made.

A motor (carbon-sleeved rotor for example) which has flat power to very high speed would be beneficial to Model 3 Performance just as it is for the Plaid.

In terms of off-the-line performance, remember it actually takes very little power (nearly zero) from the battery to generate enormous initial acceleration. You just need the torque - and there is plenty of it at 0 RPM. Power requirements ramp linearly from 0 as speed increases from zero (HP = Torque * RPM). So that 0-30mph (and more like 0-45mph) will not be limited by the pack, either.

There are plenty of plots out there in the public domain showing battery power and power to the wheels, vs speed, etc, measured on the Model 3, and it makes all this clear.

In the US we still get the good stuff. Hopefully that continues. We need all the power here; it is not necessary in UK.

But yeah presumably at some point the power from the battery could limit things to roughly 15% lower than S Plaid. But the car would be lighter…

Even the motors they use in the MS/X LR would be a vast improvement. It's a little unnerving just how much better my dad's X accelerates above 70 mph or so compared to my 3P.

Frankly at the new prices I would normally be tempted to just get a Plaid... but I'm done with Tesla at this point for other reasons.

 

[ODWms]

There’s just something that irks me about the exterior size difference, with little to no interior size benefit. I just can’t see myself driving a car that size everyday compared to the 3.

 

[racerx2005]

Can we stop calling Model 3 “Highland”? the car, dubbed “Highland” with cosmetic and “enhancements” was released last week and it wasn’t renamed. It’s just Model 3. Period.

 

[Destiny1701]

Ok so do we then refer to the non-refresh as ‘legacy’? Either way there has to be some distinction bud. Call it highland, call it ‘new3’ call it 2023+ refresh…there will now always be a distinction.

For MS it’s been 2021+ refresh or pre-2021 or ‘Raven ‘ or pre-‘Raven’ or pre- facelift (2016) discussions for years.

 

[Apprunner]

Even the motors they use in the MS/X LR would be a vast improvement. It's a little unnerving just how much better my dad's X accelerates above 70 mph or so compared to my 3P.

Frankly at the new prices I would normally be tempted to just get a Plaid... but I'm done with Tesla at this point for other reasons.

A lot of the improvements for better top end speed is inverter improvements. If you just put the Model S LR motors and inverters into the Model 3, it would run mid 10s in the quarter mile. Enough to blow away anything sub $100k ICE.

 

[Devils son]

It could be argued that there has not been a Performance model since the LG 5L battery replaced the Panasonic 3L in 2022Q2.

I doubt it. What's the 0-60 difference? .1 of a second?

 

[GreenHokie]

A lot of the improvements for better top end speed is inverter improvements. If you just put the Model S LR motors and inverters into the Model 3, it would run mid 10s in the quarter mile. Enough to blow away anything sub $100k ICE.

Hoping Tesla will incorporate that same hardware (carbon wrapped motors & different inverters) into the performance trim of the refreshed M3. This, combined with the higher energy density M3P batteries from CATL, will hopefully result in 0-60 times in the 2.6-2.8 sec range, and give the M3 that much needed boost in power/acceleration at higher speeds.

If Tesla does the above, I’ll be the first in line to sell my 2019 Stealth Performance and get the refresh M3!
Tesla can charge whatever the hell they want for the above performance/plaid-like trim. I’ll pay/buy it!!! Hope you’re listening Tesla!!

 

[E90alex]

Hoping Tesla will incorporate that same hardware (carbon wrapped motors & different inverters) into the performance trim of the refreshed M3. This, combined with the higher energy density M3P batteries from CATL, will hopefully result in 0-60 times in the 2.6-2.8 sec range, and give the M3 that much needed boost in power/acceleration at higher speeds.

If Tesla does the above, I’ll be the first in line to sell my 2019 Stealth Performance and get the refresh M3!
Tesla can charge whatever the hell they want for the above performance/plaid-like trim. I’ll pay/buy it!!! Hope you’re listening Tesla!!

M3P has less energy capacity and less discharge capability than current 2170. It’s an improvement over LFP but still inferior than NMC and NCA. Definitely won’t be used in a performance application.

People need to stop blindly regurgitating hyped buzzwords from YouTube Tesla influencers and actually need to know what they’re talking about.

 

[GreenHokie]

M3P has less energy capacity and less discharge capability than current 2170. It’s an improvement over LFP but still inferior than NMC and NCA. Definitely won’t be used in a performance application.

People need to stop blindly regurgitating hyped buzzwords from YouTube Tesla influencers and actually need to know what they’re talking about.

I apologize if I misunderstood the relative energy density/capability of CATL’s new M3P batteries….

 

[racerx2005]

Ok so do we then refer to the non-refresh as ‘legacy’? Either way there has to be some distinction bud. Call it highland, call it ‘new3’ call it 2023+ refresh…there will now always be a distinction.

For MS it’s been 2021+ refresh or pre-2021 or ‘Raven ‘ or pre-‘Raven’ or pre- facelift (2016) discussions for years.

I would call it “outgoing Model 3” for the one that’s being replaced, and just Model 3 going forward.

 

[Destiny1701]

I would call it “outgoing Model 3” for the one that’s being replaced, and just Model 3 going forward.

You say PotAto and I say PotAHto…
Same sh-t lol

 

[gearchruncher]

A lot of the improvements for better top end speed is inverter improvements. If you just put the Model S LR motors and inverters into the Model 3, it would run mid 10s in the quarter mile. Enough to blow away anything sub $100k ICE.

Explain more please. How do the current Model 3 inverters limit high top end, while the newer S do this less?

My impression was that you need voltage to keep torque up at higher RPM's, and that the fall off is because you run out of voltage. You can see the current drop as you go faster, which only makes sense if the voltage is dropping. Are you saying that the S inverters BOOST voltage?

It's very interesting that the Plaid runs lower RPM's than a model 3P at the same vehicle speeds.

Oh, and you're not just spouting nonesense, are you? Because you might want to look up what inverter is used in the Plaid.

(Hint, it's the Model 3 inverter, down to the board saying "Model 3")
(@12:30 they cover that the stator is identical to the Model Y in the Plaid also)

 

[Apprunner]

Explain more please. How do the current Model 3 inverters limit high top end, while the newer S do this less?

My impression was that you need voltage to keep torque up at higher RPM's, and that the fall off is because you run out of voltage. You can see the current drop as you go faster, which only makes sense if the voltage is dropping. Are you saying that the S inverters BOOST voltage?

It's very interesting that the Plaid runs lower RPM's than a model 3P at the same vehicle speeds.

Oh, and you're not just spouting nonesense, are you? Because you might want to look up what inverter is used in the Plaid.

(Hint, it's the Model 3 inverter, down to the board saying "Model 3")
(@12:30 they cover that the stator is identical to the Model Y in the Plaid also)

I guess I was wrong. I read that inverter improvements also yielded improvements for top end speed. Seems the Model S just uses better motors.

 

[gearchruncher]

Seems the Model S just uses better motors.

Good for us is that it only uses one change to the motor- the rotor, which uses Tesla's patented laminate design, and carbon winding. But most of the motor and the inverter is identical (except some software, I assume).

It's 100% possible for Tesla to swap only the rotor on a Model 3 and get better high speed performance, because that's all the Model S Plaid is. It's just 3 Model 3 motors with a different rotor in the rear motors.

The only reason to not do this model segmentation, but it's not tied to any "highland" changes either- they could have released a Model 3 Ludacris 2 years ago if they wanted to with no changes to the rest of the car. Even the battery could sustain the performance at higher speed since the peak current would be no higher.

Wanting a quicker 0-45 MPH is a different issue with the battery though, and 0-60 is what sells Tesla performance cars, so they don't have a great reason to do this.

 

[GreenHokie]

Good for us is that it only uses one change to the motor- the rotor, which uses Tesla's patented laminate design, and carbon winding. But most of the motor and the inverter is identical (except some software, I assume).

It's 100% possible for Tesla to swap only the rotor on a Model 3 and get better high speed performance, because that's all the Model S Plaid is. It's just 3 Model 3 motors with a different rotor in the rear motors.

The only reason to not do this model segmentation, but it's not tied to any "highland" changes either- they could have released a Model 3 Ludacris 2 years ago if they wanted to with no changes to the rest of the car. Even the battery could sustain the performance at higher speed since the peak current would be no higher.

Wanting a quicker 0-45 MPH is a different issue with the battery though, and 0-60 is what sells Tesla performance cars, so they don't have a great reason to do this.

Thanks for the good info. So, on the upcoming performance trim of the M3 refresh, let’s assume Tesla decides to stick with Dual Motor and also continues to use the exact same type and size battery as in the current outgoing M3P (performance) model. If carbon-sleeved rotors is the only hardware change they make to the performance trim, then we are probably looking at pretty much the same 0-60 times and only slightly better high speed performance?

Crunch on that and let us know what you think….

 

[Apprunner]

Thanks for the good info. So, on the upcoming performance trim of the M3 refresh, let’s assume Tesla decides to stick with Dual Motor and also continues to use the exact same type and size battery as in the current outgoing M3P (performance) model. If carbon-sleeved rotors is the only hardware change they make to the performance trim, then we are probably looking at pretty much the same 0-60 times and only slightly better higher speed performance?

Crunch on that and let us know what you think….

I don't even know why we need the carbon rotors. The Model S LR is significantly faster up-top than the Model 3 Performance.