Model 3 LR range - anyone check it out?

[omgwtfbyobbq]

So I must listen to the podcast to find out if the used the aeros or the 19's. How about a hint!

There's a reference to "the bigger wheels" at about 15:15. The trip start point is just confusing because the host who didn't drive said SF first, and the other host said from Palo Alto, which is a little after 3 minutes, and he mentions the distance a little after 12:20.

I heard the reference to driving 65mph a little on the 5, and he said he arrived at Kettleman at 10:30 after 17:25, but I rewound and still haven't heard when he left (just a reference to in the morning at the beginning). On the 5, DW will do 80-85mph with 90+ for passing, but I usually drive 55-65mph, which is in my experience at least a 30+% difference in energy efficiency in the same car. Toss in another 20% for Sport wheels, and I wouldn't be surprised to see an efficient driver with Aero wheels get twice the range of a fast driver with Sport wheels.

The other thing that's interesting is he said he charged for a few hours at his Hawthorne hotel, adding 60 miles to go over 200 miles before heading over to SpaceX (26:30+). If he left Kettleman with 305 indicated miles (19:50+) and arrived near Hawthorne with 140 miles (on the low end), that would mean he used 165 indicated miles to travel 183 actual miles.

Did he say anything about stopping in Tejon? If not, driving from Palo Alto to Kettleman used 240 indicated miles over 185 actual miles, but driving from Kettleman to Hawthorne only used 165 indicated miles over 183 actual miles, which I don't understand...

 

[ElecFan]

So is anybody concerned about the range? The Palo Alto to Kettelman leg used ~76% of the battery (~94% SOC at start, arrived with %18 left) to cover 185 miles.

At least this real world example somewhat corroborates the real world range estimates I made over at the MT test thread (which was 210 miles @70% depletion, a number nobody agreed with there).

Either way a far cry from the 310-320 most are thinking they will get. Hoping more real world reports start coming in, so I can make my SR vs LR decision.

I just tried to replicate this trip using abetterrouteplanner and came up with 267 wh/mi. A 78 kWh usable LR battery would give it a range of 292 miles. So not too far away from the 310 (and this is at 75 mph).

 

[ölbrenner]

@ElecFan - ABRP is so much fun to play with, yes? The 267 Wh/mi figure you have is at 65mph (you stated the trip is at 75mph, but I think your reference speed is set to 100% which would be 70mph, can't tell for sure there's a red line through it).

Still, imho 292 miles @ 100% depletion is not real world road trip usable range (my way of thinking is more like 70-90% depletion, so 204-263 miles max, quite far off the +/- 300'ish expectation many here seem to have).

Okay so here's what I get in ABRP to the supercharger destination with 18% remaining, letting ABRP do it's speed consumption correction from default base reference value, and adjusting cruise speed not reference consumption (since it's inherent to the vehicle at any given speed) to meet the actual destination SOC:

Turns out cruise speed is 73.5 mph (105% reference speed of 70mph).



If one keeps driving to Lost Hills (90% pack depletion, generally as far as I would want to push it), one is maxed out on range at 215 miles:

Start out same trip at 100% SOC and keep driving, car is dead at 240 miles. I myself don't see that being close to 300'ish expectations.

 

[ElecFan]

Hmm a range of 240 miles at 255 Wh/mile would make a 61 kWh usable battery. That can't be right for the LR.

 

[ölbrenner]

Hmm a range of 240 miles at 255 Wh/mile would make a 61 kWh usable battery. That can't be right for the LR.

The reference consumption is 255Wh/m @ 65mph. This trip is at 75mph, therefore the actual consumption is higher than reference (hover your mouse over the Wh/m entry field for an explanation of how ABRP automatically calculates the new consumption).

 

[ölbrenner]

@ElecFan - Okay after I answered above, I got to really thinking about your question. I didn't get the meaning until now .

If I plan a 255 mile trip @ 65mph, with a reference consumption of 255 Wh/m @ 65 mph, with battery depleted 100%:
I get a usable pack size of 65 kWh in ABRP .

And an SR usable pack size of 46 kWh.

Please somebody double check. If this is true, we need to submit a bug report asap
(UPDATE: Bug report submitted).

 

[Electroman]

ABRP? Is that the lastest condiment from China everyone is talking about?

 

[ölbrenner]

Okay I have confirmed the pack capacities ABRP uses:
SR = 51 kWh
LR = 71 kWh

If you plan a route on a flat and long stretch of road (I used I-84 across North Dakota), and use the default 255 Wh/m @ 65mph and set max speed to 65mph with 100% pack depletion, you come scary close to these capacities. Any difference is due to terrain (you can see actual consumption along any point of a route by clicking on the course line).

So, disregard pack capacities above based on Palo Alto to Kettleman runs, it's simply not flat enough for long enough to get a steady state Wh/m to figure out pack capacity with.

IMO ABRP SR routes will be very close to actual, while the LR calculations will be just slightly conservative (since LR pack appears to be at least 75 kWh usable).

 

[ElecFan]

Okay I have confirmed the pack capacities ABRP uses:
SR = 51 kWh
LR = 71 kWh

If you plan a route on a flat and long stretch of road (I used I-84 across North Dakota), and use the default 255 Wh/m @ 65mph and set max speed to 65mph with 100% pack depletion, you come scary close to these capacities. Any difference is due to terrain (you can see actual consumption along any point of a route by clicking on the course line).

So, disregard pack capacities above based on Palo Alto to Kettleman runs, it's simply not flat enough for long enough to get a steady state Wh/m to figure out pack capacity with.

IMO ABRP SR routes will be very close to actual, while the LR calculations will be just slightly conservative (since LR pack appears to be at least 75 kWh usable).

I'd say ABRP is very conservative. Based on the official EPA doc it was calculated in this thread the usable M3-batterycapacity is 78 kWh.

 

[ölbrenner]

The 78 kWh is only calculated, and the pack degrades a bit in the first year and then a little more over time. Myself I will go with 75 kWh, but either figure makes little difference in current ABRP trip calculations (hence my 'slightly conservative' take on it with regards to trip planning).

For instance, in planning a coast to coast run from San Diego to Jacksonville, the difference between using default 255 Wh/m (i.e. 71 kWh pack usable capacity) and 242 Wh/m (i.e. 75 kWh pack) is only one less supercharger stop and 3/4 of an hour total time saved.

One thing out of this exercise:
I am now finally convinced that on the longest and flattest of trips, at 65mph, the LR *will* do 290 miles at 100% depletion. In the real world where one drives 65-75mph, with terrain, and 80% to 10-15% depletion SC to SC hops; I am figuring more like +/- 200 miles (surprise surprise right back to the podcast range experience).

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

The 78 kWh is only calculated, and the pack degrades a bit in the first year and then a little more over time. Myself I will go with 75 kWh, but either figure makes little difference in current ABRP trip calculations (hence my 'slightly conservative' take on it with regards to trip planning).

For instance, in planning a coast to coast run from San Diego to Jacksonville, the difference between using default 255 Wh/m (i.e. 71 kWh pack usable capacity) and 242 Wh/m (i.e. 75 kWh pack) is only one less supercharger stop and 3/4 of an hour total time saved.

One thing out of this exercise:
I am now finally convinced that on the longest and flattest of trips, at 65mph, the LR *will* do 290 miles at 100% depletion. In the real world where one drives 65-75mph, with terrain, and 80% to 10-15% depletion SC to SC hops; I am figuring more like +/- 200 miles (surprise surprise right back to the podcast range experience).

The 78+ kWh was measured by Tesla during their testing, so if they got it wrong, I don't know what's right anymore.

But yeah, practically speaking, 75+kWh probably works given however much initial degradation. Unless of course Tesla/Panasonic are "seasoning" the cells prior to use, so there isn't a relatively large drop in capacity.

I agree with ~290 miles max range @ 65mph, especially with HVAC use.

The only other thing that still bugs me is the difference in the indicated/rate miles traveled between the two legs. They're practically the same distance, but the driver got to Kettleman with only 18% SOC, and got to Hawthorne with what I'm guessing is ~45% SOC based on his comments about rated range/charging. Either he made a mistake/typo (stopped off at Tejon ranch or forgot to record something/had a typo), or the way the 3 shows miles remaining depends way more on recent energy consumption than most other EVs.

 

[Candleflame]

You cannot live with SR as your only car. Altleast not without a lot of compromise and difficultly. You need to have a backup ICE for long distance trips. I am not talking about hypermiling.

But I can see LR as the only car with not much of a difficulty.

i know plenty of people in the UK who would consider a 300km trip a very long trip and would do anything they could to avoid it or just dont make such journeys. I frequently used to do a 660km journey and people were generally amazed by me doing this distance like it is nothing. I know america has much larger distances but im sure there are plenty of people a SR would be sufficient enough.

 

[djplong]

Even in this country, it's geographically-dependent.

I live in New Hampshire. There are three use-cases for our typical "long drives":

1) Going most places in the country (like to my daughters in Philly or even all the way to Florida), the crucial thing is, can it get me past New York City without recharging? It's 225 miles from my house to the George Washington Bridge. Allowing for speed, HVAC, maybe driving in winter, the LR gets me past there.

2) For my old weekenders in Montreal, it's 281 miles to my favorite hotel on the south shore - but I have to go through the Green Mountains so there's lots of elevation in there. Because of the lack of traffic, I don't mind the fact that I might have to stop in Vermont for a Supercharger boost.

3) To get to the cottage my wife's family has on Cape Cod, it's 150 miles. Easily within range of a full charge, regardless of driving conditions.

Other areas will have other influences.

 

[KarenRei]

You cannot live with SR as your only car. Altleast not without a lot of compromise and difficultly. You need to have a backup ICE for long distance trips. I am not talking about hypermiling.

But I can see LR as the only car with not much of a difficulty.

Oh please, not this nonsense again. Everybody's needs are different. Stop claiming to speak for everyone.

My case: I live in a place where the maximum speed limit is 90 kph (56mph). So increase range for the low speed, and increase the length of each leg because you're moving at a lower speed, so it takes longer to cover a given amount of range. Where I am, SR is like LR in a place where speed limits are ~70-75 or so. At 56mph, 310 miles would become something like 370 miles, which is 6 1/2 hours. There's no way I'd be comfortable driving anywhere near that long without a break.

 

[Electroman]

Karen - when it is cold and icy and windy, which in Iceland it is sure to be 6 months a year. You will be secretly longing for the LR.

On the other hand Puerto Ricans - can live with SR without even charging for a week.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Karen - when it is cold and icy and windy, which in Iceland it is sure to be 6 months a year. You will be secretly longing for the LR.

On the other hand Puerto Ricans - can live with SR without even charging for a week.

I've never seen a Mansplanation and an Americansplanation in one sentence. It's truly, something...

 

[stopcrazypp]

You cannot live with SR as your only car. Altleast not without a lot of compromise and difficultly. You need to have a backup ICE for long distance trips. I am not talking about hypermiling.

But I can see LR as the only car with not much of a difficulty.

Sorry not really seeing this. In my SF to LA trips, I take a stop every 1.5-2 hours or so (~100-150 miles per leg), the SR should allow this theoretically without hypermiling, albeit with slower charging. Of course, we don't know the range of SR with aero wheels yet.

 

[Big Earl]

At 4 miles per kWh, utilizing 60% of a short range's presumed 50 kWh battery would give you 120 mile Supercharger legs. This is entirely doable, but obviously results in more overall charging time than the long range car. In the winter time, that could drop significantly... perhaps to as low as 90 miles between Superchargers. You could, of course, go farther if you don't mind continuing to charge at slower speeds as state of charge goes above 70%.

 

[BLKMDL3]

Bought the Long Range model. Comes in 2 weeks (if Elon time is N/A) Then taking it right away to Palm Desert/La Quinta area with my MX90D. We don't need the LR but we only have one charger and no more room so we got it. If anyone is in the Palm Desert/Palm Springs/Indio/La Quinta area let me know and you can come and check out the car when I go there for New Years!

 

[ölbrenner]

@zackmilo - Congrats! If you can, please let us know what kind of consumption figures (and under what conditions i.e. normal 75mph traffic, etc.) you see on your drive out to Palm Desert. It sure could help answer some of the questions we have here.