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JeffK
Well-Known Member
No, that was an example of a truck driver failing to yield, a Tesla driver not paying attention, an ADAS system working exactly as it was designed (which wasn't for cross traffic), etc.
While it was sunny and he was travelling East so the sun wasn't a factor.
The official cause of the accident according to the FHP was the truck driver, who was also held responsible for the death of the Tesla driver in the report.
Oh, and did I mention THC was found in the truck driver's blood?...
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ModelNforNerd
Active Member
the THC in the blood is kinda irrelevant, and probably just a little "throw-in" bit of data (much in the same way you tossed it in at the end) from someone with an agenda that we don't need to discuss here.
point is: NHTSA found AutoPilot Not Guilty in this case, because it was not being used in the way it was intended. whether the truck driver was on something or not, the Tesla driver had 7 seconds to react, which is an eternity in accident-avoidance.
It's unfortunate and sad, but the reality is that when we get our Teslas, we all likely need to pay attention and be ready to assume control, at least until it's cleared for Level 4.
There are a few things that people forget.
We are either sitting on the left side of the car or right side of the car, and not in the middle. So our line of sight in city driving is not always directly ahead of the driver.
And people just assume that center screen would require you to take your eyes further away from the road than traditional instrument panel, and my conclusion is that this is not true.
I believe the Left Upper Corner of the center screen is closer to your line of sight during city driving than traditional instrument panel.
And I don't know about you, I look at the center mirror and side mirrors way more often when I drive than my instrument panel and center/navigation screen, and they are way off the line of sight. I don't feel any less safe while checking my mirrors.
So instead of writing it off, you should test drive what Tesla has to offer for a single screen design before making your decision.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
It's entirely relevant. The truck driver made a bad judgement call. Whether ADAS failed or the tesla driver wasn't paying attention is inconsequential to the fact that the truck driver was "at fault" in the eyes of the law. He was the one that violated state law.
NHTSA was investigating whether or not ADAS was working correctly, and it was as you mentioned. However, the misuse or lack of attention by the Tesla driver wasn't the primary cause of the accident. It's true that proper use might have prevented the accident though.
ModelNforNerd
Active Member
To put it quite simply: no one would have known anything about the condition of the truck driver if the Tesla driver was acting responsibly in controlling his own vehicle.
Sure, there may be a liability issue on the truck driver and his employer now, but it won't bring back the Tesla driver, and that's the important outcome here, personal vigiliance and self-awareness could have prevented an entirely preventable death.
Yes, the truck driver is partially at fault, but a sober driver doing only 60mph had 7 seconds to react.
In a normal situation, that's about .5 second to make a decision, and 6.5 seconds to reflect on how lucky you just got.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
He owns his own trucking company
Maybe partially at fault in real life, but legally 100% at fault according to the FHP report.
ModelNforNerd
Active Member
JeffK
Well-Known Member
Yet, if he would have yielded we would be discussing the incident at all.
I think it eventually benefitted autopilot as a whole though.
ModelNforNerd
Active Member
Yet, if he would have yielded we would be discussing the incident at all.
I think it eventually benefitted autopilot as a whole though.
It did vindicate Autopilot, because NHTSA was able to determine (quite easily, really), that it should never have been enabled on that type of road.
There is a big difference between these two phrases.
'the model 3 will have no bells and whistles'
"and a lot of of the “bells and whistles” are not going to be in the Model 3
i take the latter to mean that several of the features that are in the S&X will not be in the model 3 -- we already about auto-revealing door handles, the winged doors. that in no way means that Model 3 won't have a HUD. It is misleading to claim that the model 3 will have 'no bells and whistles'
'the model 3 will have no bells and whistles'
"and a lot of of the “bells and whistles” are not going to be in the Model 3
i take the latter to mean that several of the features that are in the S&X will not be in the model 3 -- we already about auto-revealing door handles, the winged doors. that in no way means that Model 3 won't have a HUD. It is misleading to claim that the model 3 will have 'no bells and whistles'
boiler81
Member
My thought are that both audible and "line-of-sight" visual indication is needed for EAP to be safely implemented in M3. If that can be achieved with a simple buzzer and "engaged/disengaged" LED indicators mounted in front of drivers position, thats great. But something more than the "busy" center screen will be needed to make EAP use safer.
ummgood
Member
Actually I am not anxious at the least. This is a lot of money to spend on a car. It is a 50k decision in my mind I am assuming at least with the options I want. That is a LOT of money for most people. I am blessed that I can afford a 50k car and send three kids through private school but I got here by being very frugal with my money and making wise choices. I am at a point where I want a nice car because I spend a lot of time behind the wheel in traffic. At least 1 hour (closer to 2) every day being the school bus in the morning and fighting afternoon traffic to get home or to basketball games.
If the car cannot give me some level of comfort and what I am expecting from the inside of the car I won't be the one handing them my money. I'll except spartan but if I am losing features and I can't see of a clever way they dealt with that then I might be passing and buying a new or used luxury car. I need this car to last me 10 years while I finance three kids through college before I can replace it with one car for my wife and I both. My wife's kid hauler and my commuter car will be both traded for one car when I retire. Until then the Model 3 needs to bridge that gap. If I don't think it will be a nice place to live for 1 to 2 hours a day then I'll pass. Yeah I want it to look awesome from the outside (it does) but I need to be able to have air flow on my face, I need to have comfortable seats, I need to get all the info I want while I drive. I am unwilling to compromise and I am unwilling to spend north of 50k to get a car where I need to compromise.
Yes the EV drivetrain is awesome. I absolutely love the model S and the way it drives. If the Model 3 was a Model S with some of the comforts and gimmicks removed and slightly less performance and size then I would totally be ok with the purchase. The problem is will removal of one screen and getting rid of traditional ventilation in the cabin make it an uncomfortable place to spend 1 to 2 hours? That is what I need to assess. I am not anxious about it. I really want the Model 3 and I really want everything to work out. If it doesn't I'll have to make a hard call and buy something else.
ummgood
Member
There are a few things that people forget.
We are either sitting on the left side of the car or right side of the car, and not in the middle. So our line of sight in city driving is not always directly ahead of the driver.
And people just assume that center screen would require you to take your eyes further away from the road than traditional instrument panel, and my conclusion is that this is not true.
I believe the Left Upper Corner of the center screen is closer to your line of sight during city driving than traditional instrument panel.
And I don't know about you, I look at the center mirror and side mirrors way more often when I drive than my instrument panel and center/navigation screen, and they are way off the line of sight. I don't feel any less safe while checking my mirrors.
So instead of writing it off, you should test drive what Tesla has to offer for a single screen design before making your decision.
I agree with you that having to move my eye to the center of the car instead of between the wheel isn't much of a problem. I had a 2001 Toyota Echo that had the instrument cluster in the middle of the dash and it wasn't a really big deal.
My problem is not the fact that I have to look in a different place. My problem is I get distracted. I am very detail oriented and if something happens in the corner of my eye I look at it. I have had to train myself not to look at distracting info in the car. I find it nice to have the gauge cluster separated from the infotainment stuff. I am waiting to see what Tesla does but having all that map/audio/other fun stuff all on the same screen with the speed/autopilot info/indicators can potentially make it where I don't notice important info because it is cluttered with all the other stuff. I am waiting to see how they accomplish this. On the test drives there was a small box with the map moving around. Out of the corner of my eye it will be difficult to tell if the movement is because I left my turn indicator on or because there is some detail on the map moving in the vicinity of my speed.
That accident occurred because the driver completely failed to understand two simple rules that Tesla was very clear about: do not use AP on roads with cross traffic, and while using AP always maintain your attention on your surroundings and be ready to take over at any time. If the driver had even followed one of those two simple rules the accident would not have occurred. "Driving into the sun" was not the cause of that accident.
diamond.g
Active Member
ummgood
Member
I could never buy a Bolt. I like sexy nice looking cars...
What I want is for EV's to be competitive with their target segment without any down sides. Right now the biggest reason they are not competitive is price. The Model S and X are actually competitive with large expensive premium nameplates. The reason they are competitive is because they skim a bit on the luxuries but people in that price bracket are willing to accept that. But then again they are only selling 50k cars a year. When they get into more mainstream lower end lux car buyers some will buy because it is Tesla and I hope that is enough to keep them selling 500k cars a year but maybe not. I think the goal should be to get something that is a direct competition to the BMW 3 series or Audi A4 AND cost around the same price AND have similar equipment so someone doesn't see a 'con' with going with the Tesla. That is the ideal situation.
Yeah I won't be buying a bolt. To me that is like getting a Chevy Sonic but 20k overpriced.
diamond.g
Active Member
Shhhh, don't let @McRat hear you....
Seriously though, I want a Model 3, but was willing to entertain a Bolt. My sadness for it was mainly stemming from lack of L2 autonomy features, and the apparent refusal to include a EVSE that can use different adapters to charge at different rates (but that isn't just them).
Too easy of a target. Somebody who thinks a Tacoma is sex on wheels, and has the high aspiration of someday owning a German taxicab as a fashion statement is simply leading with their chin. Besides folk buy Ford trucks, and Camry cars, when they aren't shopping for SUVs, not Bimmer and Audi sedans.
AP2 has fixed the problem. He would not take his eye off the road for more than a second or two with AP2.
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