Model S crash: Germany 9/28/16

[Tam]

At what point does this stop being big news? When there are 1 million model 3s on the road, there's going to be several Tesla accidents a day.

I do care when there's an Autopilot accident because it is still imperfect and there's a lot to learn from what work and what don't.

There's a confusion of who was changing lane: First report said it was the Tesla, then later, the report corrected: no, actually, it's the tourist bus who was.

Either way, "the vehicle is also equipped with Automatic Emergency Braking and a Side Collision Avoidance system. The police said that they were looking into why the features didn’t prevent the accident."

 

[Max*]

Either way, "the vehicle is also equipped with Automatic Emergency Braking and a Side Collision Avoidance system. The police said that they were looking into why the features didn’t prevent the accident."

Easy.

AEB = forward only. Radar + Camera. If the bus was changing lanes from the side, no AEB.
SCA = sucks due to using the sonars which only see 16 feet. At 50mph, 16feet can be covered in 0.2seconds. 0.2 seconds for the Tesla to see that a car is approaching fast into your 16 foot distance, react, and move your car enough so that you don't collide.

 

[msnow]

At what point does this stop being big news? When there are 1 million model 3s on the road, there's going to be several Tesla accidents a day.

I take this stuff seriously because sometimes I learn things about AP that I didn't know before. Like the Florida accident where Elon said that the truck scenario was a use case they knew about but that the technology was not capable to detect without a lot of false positives so they don't alert on it. I didn't know that before, none of us did but Tesla did. That was good info to know. Same with the China accident with the street cleaner, valuable info. If it's not something you're interested in or care about just "unsubscribe".

 

[Tam]

...I didn't know that before, none of us did but Tesla did...

And MobilEye also chimed in that I knew very clearly that their system supplied to Tesla wouldn't work in the Florida case and if you want it to work, you'll have to buy their new components coming out in 2018!

 

[X Yes?]

Easy fix. Call it ACP (Automatic Co-Pilot).

Just kidding.

Your'e on to something. That would better represent the system, might even prevent some lawsuits.

 

[McRat]

Your'e on to something. That would better represent the system, might even prevent some lawsuits.

It's a little late for that from a marketing perspective.

 

[Tam]

...AEB = forward only. Radar + Camera. If the bus was changing lanes from the side, no AEB...

SCA = sucks due to using the sonars which only see 16 feet. At 50mph, 16feet can be covered in 0.2seconds. 0.2 seconds for the Tesla to see that a car is approaching fast into your 16 foot distance, react, and move your car enough so that you don't collide.

Joshua Brown showed a video of a truck who improperly changed lane and cut him off in front but the car applied brake by itself and prevented a rear end collision.

I think others have reported the same: When someone does a very bad lane changing and cuts you off in front, the car would apply the brakes on its own to secure a safe distance in front.

 

[Max*]

Joshua Brown showed a video of a truck who improperly changed lane and cut him off in front but the car applied brake by itself and prevented a rear end collision.

I think others have reported the same: When someone does a very bad lane changing and cuts you off in front, the car would apply the brakes on its own to secure a safe distance in front.

AP != AEB

I was specifically talking about AEB. If you have a car changing lanes INTO you, AEB wont activate. If you have a car changing lanes in front of you, sharply, you might get AEB to activate (though likely AP will handle it).


FTR: I've had both AEB and SCA occur.

 

[Stoneymonster]

Again, AEB and SCA are last resort features. They are not 100% foolproof.

 

[Chopr147]

"We will now have to look into why the autopilot didn't work" to prevent the crash, police said in a statement.
And how pray tell do the police intend on solving this issue? When they do maybe the German police can pass on the fix to Tesla.
Dumb statement if quote is correct. My experience with the media here in US is they get it wrong EVERY time.

 

[brianman]

FTR: I've had both AEB and SCA occur.

Thankfully, I've never experienced this (SCA). Can you tell us more about the user/driver experience when this happens? Thanks.

 

[Max*]

Thankfully, I've never experienced this (SCA). Can you tell us more about the user/driver experience when this happens? Thanks.

At the time I took it as disappointing (I was in no danger, it was a false alarm, well... sort of). But in hindsight, if it did it more abruptly when it didn't have to, i'd probably complain too. So I'd say it did it's job OK, but I would NOT rely on it to save my ass (I've had closer calls, and SCA never activated).

SCA: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1284195/
AEB: Emergency Braking in Progress

<--- Not a bad driver, really, lol... :goes off in shame:

 

[Tam]

The scenario is now clearer:

Model S Crashes Make Headlines In Europe

"the accident occurred as a bus from Denmark returned into the right lane after a passing maneuver. “This was overlooked by the Tesla driver, or rather, by the Tesla,” writes the SHZ."

So in a manual driving without a dashcam, who would be at fault?

The bus would argue that it had lots of clearance before it went back to the lane in front of Tesla.

Tesla would argue that the bus cut in front without providing any safe distance. Thus, collision was caused by the bus and unavoidable in a manual driving.

On the other hand, if Autopilot works perfectly, its ultrasonic sensors would detect a bus passing on its left side. And if the bus cut in front, radar and ultrasonic sensors would work together to prepare for and activate the brakes in this case.

Thus, technology would have avoided a collision and needless blames from each side.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I do notice when using AP that I react/notice a car cutting into my lane faster than AP reacts. With the single, not wide angle camera, I am guessing that unless AP uses the ultrasonic sensors well, and/or radar better, it is going to have a hard time with fast cut ins. Most bus drivers assume that cars will give way to them...

 

[EVie'sDad]

Tesla begs to differ...

Tesla says Autopilot not to blame in crash with bus in Germany
by Reuters
Friday, 30 September 2016 01:52 GMT
Tesla says Autopilot not to blame in crash with bus in Germany

Tesla denied that Autopilot was at fault, saying the bus swerved into the car's lane and side-swiped the Tesla, making a collision "unavoidable," the spokeswoman said.

"We can only do so much to prevent an accident," she said, adding that Tesla was in contact with German police.

 

[malcolm]

This really is getting old... Fast. What is the relevant nature of posting each and every accident that MAY have involved AP, specifically autosteer???

Jeff

Probably because in future discussions some will choose to reel off a list of incidents as proof positive of their position re Autopilot.

It's useful to try to get a clear account ("Where are the fact checkers?" - etc)

But also, yeah - just rubbernecking.

 

[ig_epower]

So sounds like the bus changed lanes into him and not the other way around. Nothing to see here.

One issue I can see is if the AP sees a gap in front, it accelerates pretty hard to fill it (assuming the top speed was greater than the current speed of the car as it was following a slower car). Let's say a slower car in front of the Tesla moves out of the lane and the bus sees a gap. The Tesla also sees the gap and closes in. Meanwhile, the bus driver doesn't realize how quickly the Tesla can accelerate and initiates the lane change - right into the Tesla. I watch for this all the time when I am on AP.

The bus driver still performed an unsafe lane change as the Tesla would have had the right of way (AP on or not).

My only recommendation is if we can set the acceleration rates when on AP. I find it a bit aggressive but perhaps this was addressed in v8.0?

 

[Roger t]

Good human drivers not only drive correctly, but also react to other people's mistakes. That's what really reduced rate of accident because there's some fault redundancy. AP adds more to the redundancy as driver can be more alert. But driver has to pay attention, and not all accidents can be avoided.

 

[Max*]

Human driver not only drive correctly

Not where I live.

 

[Gizmotoy]

Easy fix. Call it ACP (Automatic Co-Pilot).

Just kidding.

I know you were kidding, but there are legitimately calling for a name-change to Co-Pilot. It both makes sense, and it silly. Most people would seemingly interpret a Co-Pilot as less capable than Autopilot. That's a funny situation, because the opposite is true in the aviation world, where the terms originate.

SCA = sucks due to using the sonars which only see 16 feet. At 50mph, 16feet can be covered in 0.2seconds. 0.2 seconds for the Tesla to see that a car is approaching fast into your 16 foot distance, react, and move your car enough so that you don't collide.

I've said it before, and I know many others have as well, but from a functionality point of view the ultrasonics were a mistake from the beginning. Their range is too small, and their latency is too high. From a cost and familiarity perspective I get it. I do. But they need to drop them when they rev the hardware. They're not good enough now, and they probably never will be. The car needs radar sensors on the corners. On other vehicles this provides a range of 70m (~230ft.) or more, and it works brilliantly.