TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
Start a Discussionhttps://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/tags/

Model S to Grid, coming any day?

Discussion in 'Model S' started by zambono, Oct 6, 2017.

  1. zambono

    zambono Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    978
    Location:
    DC
    I have solar power at home and a huge battery in my garage which happens to be my S. It’s time Tesla develops a charger that goes both ways so that I can power my home in emergencies, at night etc. I don’t need a powerwall.
     
    • Like x 1
  2. JPUConn

    JPUConn Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2014
    Messages:
    714
    Location:
    CT
    Unlikely that Tesla will offer due to liability of a backfeed without proper install (like what powerwall would have). Also the battery chemistry of a powerwall is intended for daily home use discharge while the chemistry in the vehicle is not.

    Others have used inverters hooked up to tesla 12v to power items during recent storms but it’s not necessarily what you are looking for.
     
  3. Olle

    Olle Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages:
    486
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    Sounds far fetched IMO that liability would be the stopper. Much more of a liability to sell drivable cars that can collide and injure people.
    If you really want to be safe from liability could have a software that doesn't allow car to back feed until installation is signed off by Tesla.

    Agree its probably not good to daily cycle the current MS/X battery but as emergency back up would be nice! But for now Tesla probably has much bigger fish to fry.
     
  4. Swift

    Swift Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    NY
    I’m sure one of their concerns will be Free Supercharging -> Tesla -> Home.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Funny x 1
  5. number12

    number12 Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2016
    Messages:
    1,360
    Location:
    Tesla
    • Like x 2
  6. ForeverFree

    ForeverFree Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2015
    Messages:
    67
    Location:
    Sherman Oaks, CA
    With power here in California’s home state subject to outages from heat waves, Santa Ana winds, fires and earthquakes, backfeed would be a hugely valuable emergency feature.

    Yes, one can buy Powerwall, but it seems silly to shell out five figures for a couple dozen kWh when one has already paid for almost 100 sitting ready to tap in the driveway.
     
    • Like x 1
  7. MSDadMich

    MSDadMich Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2017
    Messages:
    62
    Location:
    Michigan
    I think the liability issue could be easily overcome with a hardware lockout in the electrical panel where power enters the home from the grid... similar to a generator hookup. We DO have to protect line workers and we DO NOT want our car to be inadvertently powering the neighborhood... I am sure you can guess what would happen.
    Supercharger -> car -> home would certainly be a concern with free supercharging. I am sure there are a host of other items to worry about.
    The bottom line is, in my opinion, the Powerwall does a lot more than just send electricity to your household items and it does it well. I do think that a dedicated device is in order here if for no other reason than with the increase coming in renewables we all really must have a smart grid including our homes. I for one hope that there is much more cooperation coming between traditional power producers and smaller microgrids or individuals. I am looking forward to the day dual power production agreements are standard and we all share in the burden of power regulation with the help of smart grid tech! I say, let the car be a car... except in emergencies... Can always purchase a small inverter for small stuff.
     
  8. RDoc

    RDoc S85D

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,782
    Location:
    Boston North Shore
    It will be coming any day now, just not tomorrow (date resets daily).
     
    • Funny x 1
  9. BrettS

    BrettS Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    388
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    It would need to be more than just a simple hardware lockout, because unlike a generator the connection to the HPWC needs to be connected to grid power normally to charge the car. WIth a generator lockout the circuit breaker that feeds the panel is always disconnected from grid power.

    That’s not to say that it wouldn’t be possible, but it would definitely need to be more than just a lockout.
     
  10. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Messages:
    5,389
    This topic has been discussed on multiple threads ad nauseam almost since the inception of TMC.

    That you can take your Tesla to a Supercharger, load up with free kilowatt-hours, and bring 'em back to your home just about guarantees that Tesla never will accede to the concept here.

    Tesla is, however, more than happy to sell any number of made-to-that-purpose Powerwalls.
     
  11. rowdy

    rowdy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2016
    Messages:
    118
    Location:
    Australia
    After watching the latest Nissan video it makes a lot of sense.



    If Nissan can do it I don't see why Tesla can't do it. I doubt the current 18650s would handle the cycling but perhaps the 2170's will fare better.

    Opens up new ways to make money from the car. i.e. power arbitrage (selling power stored in the car back to the grid when prices are high).
     
  12. thegruf

    thegruf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,332
    Location:
    UK
    This.

    However should Tesla choose to do so, now the mould is broken for universal free supercharging and a financial charging model is in place this could possilby change. KWH used for emergency power could be deducted from your supercharging entitlement, or even just be billed if you do have free supercharging to prevent abuse.

    I don't recall however if it was established on the S if it was possible to pull the charge out of the port as it is quite likely does not allow bidirectional feed. The Model 3 though could be entirely different and designed precisely for this function.

    Tesla also have the Powerwall and will be cautious about denting sales for that and will be wary of entensive power shifting use on the vehicle battery lifetime.

    There then follows a wider discussion about acceptability. Backup power in emergency is obviously a highly desirably use case.
    But people will inevitably abuse this. Employers anf other currently turning a blind eye to a modest level of EV charging will be forced to switch to charging as why should they subsidize employees taking power and using it regularly at home. And it's not the cost of lost electrons so much as the cost of (re) installing monitored (further charges to the monitoring companies) chargepoints.

    Really this is all part of the EV/home storage world maturing and naturally we Tesla owners will want every single feature that every other manufacturer offers or our cars will be crap. Free charging however will increasingly be a thing of the past, even governments will have to find ways of taxing EV charging without penalising electricity rates for home use as they will be forced to replace losses from gas/diesel taxation.
     
  13. alevek

    alevek Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2016
    Messages:
    128
    Location:
    Jupiter, Fl
    Using that line of reasoning to not offer a valuable feature for emergency backup, then autopilot should be disabled since someone will inevitably use it inappropriately and cause an accident. Oh wait....
     
  14. bonaire

    bonaire Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,106
    Location:
    USA
    The value of the V2H is at least what the cost of a Generac standby power generator would cost - which is about $10,000. It has huge value especially if it can be configured to work with the SolarEdge inverter that works now as a hybrid inverter for Solar/hybrid off grid running when tied to a solar pv and battery. Allowing outbound power with install equipment could be sold as a $5000 option.
     
    • Like x 1
  15. ahkahn

    ahkahn Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2017
    Messages:
    183
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Simple solution to the Supercharger issue: The Tesla should be smart enough to know that the power onboard came FROM a Supercharger, and will disable the feature for THAT power stored onboard.
     
    • Like x 1
  16. Jdcorbitt3

    Jdcorbitt3 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2016
    Messages:
    147
    Location:
    Ocala, FL
    Another option.

    The power coming out of the car is 300 to400 Volts DC, the same as power walls. Bidirectional current flow between a power wall and car should be DC. Then, during the day your solar grid, also DC could directly charge your car without going through an inverter and then a converter, thus reducing loss in efficiency. Since Teslas are designed for DC charging already, it would be easy to do with software, effectively paralleling the car battery with the Powerwall. The Powerwall installation already should have the protection built in it to prevent sending AC out to a downed grid.

    Bottom line with my concept, vehicle to grid easily possible with at least one Powerwall and special DC charger that only works with Powerwall.

    John
     
  17. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    3,401
    Location:
    Kongsberg, Norway
    How many watts is the DC/DC converter that charges the 12V battery? I guess it would be possible to wire up a higher power 12V outlet to run some stuff. But exceeding the power of the DC/DC converter would drain the 12V battery.
     
  18. SSedan

    SSedan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2017
    Messages:
    59
    Location:
    Greenville Wisconsin
    and then everyone cries when they mistakenly charge at the supercharger before a storm/power outage and now they can't use the car to power the house.

    There have LONG been available underhood generators for ICE vehicles, why didn't traditional auto makers make those standard options? Because there is no business case for it.

    On the Leaf it is a little car people drive to be good for the environment, the "features" are added to try and get people to buy it. The MS is a great car people WANT TO DRIVE it doesn't need gimmicks and given the expected longevity and the long warranty and supercharging why put the added wear on the battery? Isn't the Leaf severely lacking in battery thermal management and therefore has absolute crap resale? Maybe this is just a gimmick to create more perceived value on something short lived anyway?
     
  19. OBX John

    OBX John Autonomous Driving Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Messages:
    389
    Location:
    Outer Banks, North Carolina
    Using a $100K car to shuttle $10 of power from a supercharger to a house doesn't seem... efficient. I can't imagine it'd be a problem at scale, and if it were, enabling car to home power could come with caveats to eliminate the problem. Make users agree to limit supercharging at the same charger, or pay for supercharging near they live... it's an easy problem to overcome.

    You could have a limit on the number of stationary battery cycles as well to overcome the warranty problem of wearing the battery out.

    I think most of us just want it for emergencies, and it'd be really nice to have an option beyond stringing power cord to a 150 watt inverter in the 12v outlet.
     
  20. ForeverFree

    ForeverFree Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2015
    Messages:
    67
    Location:
    Sherman Oaks, CA
    Talking emergencies only. Hurricanes. Earthquakes.

    Some way to tap the days’ worth of power sitting in the driveway, rather than sitting in the cold/heat and dark for those days.

    Not to allow penny-pinching electron scoopers to take advantage of their employers’ generosity by putting at-work free charging lunch into a doggie bag daily.

    Anyone have thoughts on how to enable the former with encouraging the latter?
     

Share This Page