The only mod was to disable the need to sometimes touch the steering wheel.
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You just answered your own question.
The Hyundai in the video demonstrates what the system is capable of doing, not what Hyundai allows consumers to do due to modifications in the software for the production version. Hyundai wisely chose to dumb down the system for the general public.
The software changes Hyundai makes on the production car changes it from a "hands free" car to a car with a lane keeping assist feature.
I absolutely agree.
I'm now going to make a controversial claim (freely up for debate): it is impossible that all AP users can pay attention all of the time. To begin with, there is the simple fact that the human is doing less when AP is enabled. Hands move less. Feet move less. Doing less = less brain activity. That is indisputable. The actual amount of the reduction in brain activity is difficult to answer, but it is there.
Further, as AP gets better and better, people will, even involuntarily and subconsciously, pay less attention, or stop paying attention. Google observed this with their self driving car trials (and decided to skip to Level 4). There seems to also be ample evidence of this phenomenon among commercial pilots as well, who are responsible for hundreds of lives and whose job, literally, is to pay attention all the time, even when autopilot is enabled. Oh, you can warn them. You can nag them. You can berate them. But it will happen regardless.
Thus, AP is baiting the user. It's like giving the driver an enormous bed, a comforter, and a pillow, but telling them it's not OK to fall asleep. Or setting a glass of water in front of a man dying of thirst. Or building a swimming pool in your back yard and not fencing it off. The executive center only a small part of the human brain. There are limits to its power. Fundamentally, the brain is a huge cost center to the body. It burns a lot of food, and food has been traditionally scarce, and thus the brain is optimized to reduce its power consumption when not strictly necessary.
My conclusion, then, is that until all cars are completely autonomous, there will be accidents where humans are not capable of taking over from a disengaged or malfunctioning autopilot, and those will be impossible to eliminate. Blame the victims all you want--it won't help. As humans gain confidence in AP, the rate may, in fact, increase. The only question, then, is whether that situation is a net improvement in safety (fewer maimings and fatalities) or a net loss (more fatalities). I hope that, in the future, Tesla transparently publishes all of their accident data, and not carefully selected talking points, so that this may be independently judged.
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If you can't pay attention with or without autopilot, I would contend that you shouldn't be driving. Since you don't have to pay attention to steering and the accelerator, you can devote your attention to cars around you and situations as they develop. Less energy on driving and more energy on awareness.
The autopilot computer isn't there to lull you into comfort and disregard. If my family is in the car . . . I pay attention or they die. Pretty damn simple.
The autopilot computer isn't there to lull you into comfort and disregard. If my family is in the car . . . I pay attention or they die. Pretty damn simple.
This is the controversial portion of my statement: I assert that even if you want to pay attention, or think you are paying attention, or even are paying attention, objectively, you are actually paying less attention than if you were doing 100% of the driving work.
But there are people out there who aren't good drivers, period, even when they are paying attention, and people who are driving impaired (tired, drunk, etc.) and Autopilot will definitely result in a net decrease in accidents for them.
If you can't pay attention, then don't turn on autopilot ever.
If you know you are unable to function as a responsible human being, then don't turn on autopilot.
I agree, that would work great in theory, but in practice it does not. People have huge blind spots when it comes to their own ego and their limitations. They cannot accurately assess risk. "One in a ten chance of developing cancer in my lifetime? Won't happen to me. One in a hundred million chance of winning the lottery? Could happen!" Most of the population considers themselves better than average drivers. Most people will only realize they weren't paying "enough" attention after they've been involved in a crash.
And that assumes that a person can assess the amount of attention they are capable of giving ahead of time. You'd never say, "I can skip wearing a seatbelt, because I am responsible driver. If you are not a responsible human being, fasten your seatbelt." Why? Because accidents are not fully under your control.
Similarly, unless you are a Buddhist monk with years of Vipassana meditation under your belt, your own attention is not fully under your control, either. Your attention can be lost, at times, accidentally, whether you're trying to pay attention or not.
And that is why Autopilot will (if it hasn't already) make everyone safer by reducing the frequency of accidents caused by human error. I'd actually prefer that people who aren't good at paying attention, and choose to drive anyway, use Autopilot rather than not. Autopilot will reduce the chances that they will get into an accident.
However, for the same reason that Autopilot prevents accidents--human errors occur all the time, whether you want them to or not--humans are not always capable of rescuing Autopilot when it screws up. And, therefore, "you should have been paying attention" is not a valid response to an Autopilot crash. These crashes are inevitable and some are simply not preventable, regardless of the responsibility of the driver.
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CHG-ON
Still in love after all these miles
I keep my eye on AP all the time. I have never had a potentially critical event. But I think that's because I keep my eye on as the OP did. It has done a few oddball things. But nothing crazy. I always monitor its ability to slow for cars in front of me. If I don't like the rate of braking, I take over.
We must remember to not get lulled into a state of complacency when using AP. It is still a machine that simply does not have the ability to process all the reasoning points that we humans can and it is VERY early technology.
How many times has Siri or OK Google given completely crazy responses? Or your map guidance been wrong? It's the same exact thing.
We must remember to not get lulled into a state of complacency when using AP. It is still a machine that simply does not have the ability to process all the reasoning points that we humans can and it is VERY early technology.
How many times has Siri or OK Google given completely crazy responses? Or your map guidance been wrong? It's the same exact thing.
Wow, no matter what Tesla does it is bad and what others do is good in your eyes. How long should you be allowed to not touch the steering wheel since you seem to have very definitive opinions on this? Tesla would not be able to do the demo in the Hyundai video without a similar modification since the car would eventually slow down and come to a stop if the steering wheel wasn't touched. Deactivating the requirement to occasionally touch the steering wheel was the one mode Hyundai did. How about the Infiniti video? It could just as well be a Tesla video.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Actually, Tesla can't do the demonstration at all since it uses the seat sensor to disable autopilot (after someone pulled the empty seat stunt shortly after autopilot release). AFAIK none of the other automakers does this, but you don't see people going on their forums to take issue with that. Same with the advertising (for example Mercedes advertising their car as "self-driving"). People seem to only take issue if it is Tesla.
I dispute it. Less physical activity doesn't mean less brain activity...examples: Air Traffic Controllers and Dr. Stephen Hawking . Contra example, Professional Football players.
I've no experience with Tesla's AP, but with ACC I find I am much more keenly aware of my situational awareness, as I can safely spend a few more moments looking in the mirrors, turning my head all the way left, as I can trust ACC to look ahead at the lead car during those short moments, and as I am looking far ahead beyond the lead car when looking forward the chances of an ACC failure are minimized. So in my particular case, I find I can make up for less driving load with MORE brain activity.
The combination of AP covering for driver inattention, and the driver covering for AP inattention, makes for a system that is safer than either individually.
As self driving software goes from 0% reliable to 100% reliable, the amount of people trusting the software to not fail will also go from 0% to 100%
There will always be people who will become distracted more than they should and that is a problem, Google figured this type of natural human behavior out early and went for full autonomy.
If autopilot becomes 95% reliable how many people will become distracted, how about 99%, 99.9%?
It is currently the ultimate distracted driver thing out there when someone trusts it and stops paying attention
There will always be people who will become distracted more than they should and that is a problem, Google figured this type of natural human behavior out early and went for full autonomy.
If autopilot becomes 95% reliable how many people will become distracted, how about 99%, 99.9%?
It is currently the ultimate distracted driver thing out there when someone trusts it and stops paying attention
SSD420
Member
I just used autopilot all the way to my cottage 220km. I only grabbed the wheel twice when my MX told me to, and each time was for a mere few seconds on big curves. The 3rd I felt a bit uncomfortable as I felt I was a bit too close for comfort to a transport truck.
I no longer hover my hands up but I am very alert when I'm driving. I know that it's not fool proof but Autopilot + a competent driver (me!) = a pretty safe drive!
I've also started filming the other drivers back when they film me! Or when there are kids in their passenger seat to the left of me, I tend to cover my eyes and spook them! (I always make sure that I've covered my eyes loosely, so I can still see the road. I'm still aware that our cars are in "beta" and I get a little nervous when the silhouette on my dash is only a car when it's actually a truck.
I no longer hover my hands up but I am very alert when I'm driving. I know that it's not fool proof but Autopilot + a competent driver (me!) = a pretty safe drive!
I've also started filming the other drivers back when they film me! Or when there are kids in their passenger seat to the left of me, I tend to cover my eyes and spook them! (I always make sure that I've covered my eyes loosely, so I can still see the road. I'm still aware that our cars are in "beta" and I get a little nervous when the silhouette on my dash is only a car when it's actually a truck.
SSD420
Member
What Tesla does not need right now is someone posting a photo online showing a Tesla driver on the road with their hands covering their eyes. I know you think you are just being amusing to children, but think of the potential for bad PR for Tesla.
This is the age of the Internet. Any photo, taken anywhere, can potentially be viewed by billions of people.
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Motortrend had to override the model S 0.5-2% of the time during a recent test drive. The system is already within your parameters with one caveat . . . some idiots can't protect their own lives and have wanton disregard for the lives of their family members and other people? Pay attention.
Texting and driving is dumb. Not focusing on what your 5-7k lbs car is doing is stupid. You have no excuse except that you made a very bad choice (wrong road, inattention) and likely will blame the technology because you fail to take responsibility for anything. If you feel autopilot distracts you from your responsibility, don't turn it on. Ever.
These accidents and more to come, show this software is not ready to be on the public roads. In this case, GM's "creativity" of delaying the software will be a image and cost saving move. Tesla is already paying the price with safety investigations, bad press and a lawsuit.
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