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Vendor MPP At Global Time Attack Superlap With A P3D! Nov 8/9

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by MountainPass, Oct 31, 2018.

  1. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    #41 JeffC, Nov 9, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    The live stream was up a: | Live and I happened to catch Cameron on the track with his MPP Model 3 Performance.

    Cameron ran an unofficial 02:00.995 first lap, then ironically an ICE engine fire shut down the track. The driver seems ok, and the fire was reportedly small.

    Congrats on a quick first timed Lap Cameron!

    Cameron had an interview with Matt Farrah about the Model 3 during the track closure. Very cool! Matt asked about the Tire Rack Pilot Sport 4S tires Cameron used and if they had different energy efficiency from the factory 4S, and Cameron said they were about the same. (Presumably these tires are used to meet class requirements. Softer compound near racing tires would be faster, but might move the car into a different racing class.)

    He said in a combustion car (Cameron had first and second place finishes on this track in combustion cars before), there's a rhythm of going through the turns in a certain gear and that becomes a reminder of where you are on the track, corner speeds, etc. With a single gear, an EV driver needs to use the speedometer and landmarks more and focus on the forces in the tires, in particular through the sounds of the tires near the limits.

    Cameron mentioned being able to hear and localize the tires better in an EV and focus on driving fundamentals and how it made him a better driver. He said he gained a couple seconds from better understanding what the tires were doing in testing the previous day.

    He mentioned the revised track mode being downloaded the night before, and that it did help get the car through turns better.

    Camera mentioned Track Mode using the air conditioning system to cool the pack and motor before, during and after races, and mentioned needing to cool the front tires between sessions. (Presumably the lack of camber adjustment at the front is somewhat overloading the front tires on the track. Not sure if Cameron is running stock tire widths.)

    He also mentioned being able to charge at 50 amps at the track using the RV park NEMA 14-50s, and to Supercharge off track during lunch in order to keep the state of charge up. He said he likes to run near to 100% SOC for maximum performance when lapping.

    Matt mentioned only being able to get about a lap and a half out of a Model S on a race track before overheating. Cameron mentioned being able to do 6 laps due to the better cooling of Track Mode. Matt thought one might be able to do 4 sessions a day that way, two in morning and two in afternoon, but Matt mentioned wanting to have the battery pack near full, perhaps implying fewer sessions due to the desire to top off the battery.

    Someone who was not looking for ultimate lap times, however, could track the car all day at slightly lower performance due to the lower SOC and thermal limiting. I think Cameron mentioned using about 40% SOC per multilap session.

    In addition to the interview with Matt, the track announcer was very interested in Tesla and had many positive comments about Tesla while Cameron was on track, including the fact that Model 3 Performance improved literally overnight with over the air improvements to Track Mode software, the earlier ABS braking distance improvement, etc.

    For example, the track announcer mentioned M3P beating a Ferrari 458 lap time on the Streets of Willow Springs race track, but cited the wrong time, saying a 1:22 when in fact Randy Pobst did a 1:21 while doing development work on Track Mode with Tesla. (He did not mention Randy's name either, which was kind of unfortunate, given how well-known and widely-respected Randy is in the global racing community.)

    Tesla Model 3 Performance Track Mode (Release Version): Ludicrous Handling - Motor Trend
     
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  2. mcbarnet007

    mcbarnet007 Member

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    Watching Group D Session 3 right now and the announcer seems pretty Tesla friendly. He even mentioning the recent motor trend test where the Performance 3 beat Ferrari 458 at the Streets of Willow.
     
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  3. tracksyde

    tracksyde Member

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    Couple screenshots during the interview

    2018-11-09_14-03-24.jpg 2018-11-09_14-05-02.jpg
     
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  4. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    #44 JeffC, Nov 9, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    Thanks guys, I gave a little coverage of the lap time, track announcer comments and interview above.

    Congrats to Cameron and Sasha and the MPP team on a great start for Model 3 racing!
     
  5. mcbarnet007

    mcbarnet007 Member

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    Unfortunate crash by Sally though, good thing she's ok.
     
  6. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    #46 JeffC, Nov 9, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    Outrageous; they disqualified Cameron. Something about fuel. (The microphone and video cut out during the awards ceremony.)
     
  7. mcbarnet007

    mcbarnet007 Member

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    | 2018 Rules

    " 2. Only unleaded gasoline or Diesel may be used as fuel. No Ethanol, E-85, leaded, methanol or exotic fuels allowed as the primary fuel. Water/Methanol injection is allowed in a maximum of 50% methanol mix."

    but also in rule 7

    " 7. Hybrid drive is allowed only in full OEM form with no modifications to the drive, control or battery systems. "

    So in theory a Model 3 can be considered a hybrid that doesn't use any fuel.
     
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  8. Daniel in SD

    Daniel in SD Well-Known Member

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    That's ridiculous.
    I guess if you count electricity as a "fuel" then an EV is in violation of the rules... Except they allow hybrid vehicles. Super lame.
     
  9. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Active Member

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    Yeah, not seeing how you disqualify someone for NOT using a fuel. It doesn't say you have to use a fuel, simply what fuels are allowed.
     
  10. MountainPass

    MountainPass Vendor

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    Haha, so you guys have already heard we were disqualified! The live stream is great and very entertaining.

    So ridiculous to get disqualified for that. It looks like someone protested us. So we take that as a huge compliment. Someone was obviously threatened enough by a Tesla that they protested it! Even better because we didn't nearly modify the car to the extent of the rules - we would have been able to do significantly better if we installed a wing, splitter, did a ton more weight reduction.. the list goes on!

    We're motivated to come back next year and push harder. The organizers told us that next year the rules will read more EV friendly...

    In the end, Cameron's time was good enough for 2nd and, if allowed, Sasha's time would have been the fastest AWD car of the event.

    More to come!
     
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  11. mcbarnet007

    mcbarnet007 Member

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    Exactly, the keyword here is "may", you don't need to use fuel but if you want, you can only use these two. Electricity is not fuel by definition.

    Definition from Definition of FUEL

    Fuel : a material used to produce heat or power by burning

    Need to contest the ruling!
     
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  12. Gavyne

    Gavyne Member

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    That's too bad. At least the announcer seemed EV-friendly, he obviously read the news about Model 3 being the fastest sedan on streets of willow. I think with the Model 3 making the splash, it'll take a bit for these racing events to change the rules and start to acknowledge that EV's are legit contenders. Teslas are not just prototype vaporware.

    Good to see MPP and Cameron out there though, Model 3 looked good from the livestream. Looking forward to seeing more of you folks. I think Cameron drove a 2:00, what was Sasha's best time?
     
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  13. MountainPass

    MountainPass Vendor

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    We asked the organizer if he could do anything about it and he said no. He admitted it was his mistake that there was a loophole, and he intended for EV to be legal.

    We were joking about putting a small generator in the back seat and running it during the sessions so we are technically charging via petrol!
     
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  14. MountainPass

    MountainPass Vendor

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    Sasha did a 1:59.1, before we added the front splitter. The splitter and spoiler were surprisingly effective, we think it's because the Model 3 is so slippery, aero changes are very effective.
     
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  15. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    #55 JeffC, Nov 9, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    Because the drag of the stock car is so low, it may also be possible for aerodynamic changes to actually make things worse. Would need to experiment.

    Presumably with a fairly slow track you could trade off some top speed for downforce for more grip in turns (corner speeds matter a lot), but it would be very easy to get it wrong and end up with a slower car overall, particularly if drag is increased too much.
     
  16. JeffC

    JeffC Member

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    They did not use any fuel and they did not modify "the drive, control or battery systems." Therefore they were within the rules. Protest.
     
  17. kbecks13

    kbecks13 Active Member

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    #57 kbecks13, Nov 9, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    Interesting, from what i understand the same aero element will have a far lesser impact on a heavier car compared to a lighter one (meaning aero wouldn't be super effective on a Tesla). If you want to do the math on it, you can set the lateral force from cornering equal to tire grip and calculate what an increase in downforce would do for a car.

    (mv^2)/r is lateral force and tire grip would be mu*normal force. Normal force is (mg + .5*(ro)v^2*(Coefficient of Lift/Downforce)) since you have the weight of the vehicle plus the downforce from aero.

    Final equation for cornering velocity then ends up being the following, with Cl being the downforce element. You can hold everything constant and play with the mass term to see the impact of this.

    Long story short - heavy cars dont get as much gain from aero as a lighter one.

    upload_2018-11-9_19-31-8.png

    What size wing/spoiler were you using? Any guesstimate on mph (or perhaps kph :p) difference in a corner?
     
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  18. Daniel in SD

    Daniel in SD Well-Known Member

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    I think having smooth airflow is super important for making aerodynamic elements work. I bet a rear diffuser would also be very effective because of the flat underbody.
    It doesn’t seem like a whole lot of weight reduction is allowed by the class (no gutting of interior) and all the non essential parts are a small portion of the total weight of a Model 3.
    How was the tire wear? Would more front camber help?
    The next step is to put a rear drive unit in the front :D
    I agree that the rules says what fuel you “may” use, not that you must use fuel. And obviously that rule is not meant to exclude battery power since hybrids are explicitly allowed. If the intent was to allow EVs that makes the case even stronger.
     
  19. Odiemac

    Odiemac Member

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    More photos of the aero. Prototype from Maier Racing. It definitely improved the handling on track, and could have knocked off 1-2 seconds by itself.
     

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  20. mcbarnet007

    mcbarnet007 Member

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    Are those aero secured by tapes?
     

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