NEW Model 3 Highland review!

[Whatstreet]

Yes, different from everything else but not better is a disadvantage for those using multiple different vehicles.

It can also be annoying to users of rental cars.

But I have trouble with rental cars anyway.

 

[sleepydoc]

But I have trouble with rental cars anyway.

Just wait until you have a rental car without stalks and requires you to use voice commands to shift!

Joking aside, this is another issues with radically changing control paradigms. One can argue that shifting gears is less of an issue because you do it less frequently and generally have a second to think about it but not so for signals. Many of us have a spouse/significant other that drives a different car most of the time. In my case, my wife's car is a Honda Odyssey. Standard turn signal that works perfectly in every car ever made (well until last year...) Now she gets in my new Highland...what the %#@#? Yeah, it's an issue.

The thing is, there is no valid reason to remove the stalks. There was no problem they were causing. If they were causing problems you can bet every other carmaker would have removed them years ago. Can you make a car work without them? Yes. Is it 'just as good?' Maybe, depending on who you ask and how long they've been using it. but the fact that the answer is user dependent means it's really not just as good. Which goes back to the original question - why did you fix something that wasn't broken?

 

[zoomer0056]

I don’t think they mean the same thing,

I agree. See post #577, first time ever seeing someone use the proper phrase. Another pet peeve of mine, using the word annoying when complainng about how something works while not using it properly. People also say wall charger when it's a wall connector. People in the waiting room threads say delivery has been pushed back when it's actually been pushed forward. Some people also say they could care less when they really mean they couldn't care less. Oh well. But I digress, back to the regularly scheduled program.

 

[dronus]

What about doing something like a K turn.. any feeling about how that works/feels and responsiveness or reliability? Using the screen controls?

Ive done quite a few now, its not a big deal, it’s actually quite easy flicking the little car the other way. Its just different, but so was my ice car and its shifter in the centre console.

 

[dronus]

True. I thought about that too but this looks pretty instant. (Can see the blinkers activate quickly.). Maybe they do have a direct connection.

Even if not a direct connection, I’m hoping the failure rate is low enough to basically not matter.

Its not a direct connection, they use a “commander” unit which you use an adapter to splice into the canbus. If that little unit fails, or starts issuing random commands it wouldnt be ideal.

 

[dronus]

^^ @JuanF1 do you drive another vehicle regularly, or is the M3 your only car?

I drive multiple ice cars every day. Some have stalks on the wrong side (merc) some have shifters on the centre console, some are manual, some have shifters on the dash, and my highland has none haha.

We went thru these conversations here in Australia in the lead up to deliveries starting and even the media beat it up quite a bit.

Its just a case of remembering where you are, and muscle memory kicks in. Riding a motorcycle (which also dont have stalks! Haha), a skateboard or an aircraft. They are all different. Yes it will be something new, but new/change doesnt always equal bad

Greetings from Australia

 

[SO16]

Its not a direct connection, they use a “commander” unit which you use an adapter to splice into the canbus. If that little unit fails, or starts issuing random commands it wouldnt be ideal.

Thanks. It still wouldn’t deter me if I wanted the stalks.

 

[dronus]

Thanks. It still wouldn’t deter me if I wanted the stalks.

Absolutely, its not for everyone

 

[JuanF1]

^^ @JuanF1 do you drive another vehicle regularly, or is the M3 your only car?

I drove 18 years with stalks, the M3 is since last week my new and only car

 

[Kevy Baby]

The thing is, there is no valid reason to remove the stalks.

Sure there is: cost savings and fewer mechanical parts. Fewer mechanical parts means fewer things that can break (and need to be repaired).

Things evolve and will continue to evolve. Not everything will be a hit, but so far, IN THIS THREAD, the vast majority of complainers are people who haven't driven stalkless. And the majority of people who have said it's simple and quick to get used to.

 

[sleepydoc]

Sure there is: cost savings and fewer mechanical parts. Fewer mechanical parts means fewer things that can break (and need to be repaired).

Things evolve and will continue to evolve. Not everything will be a hit, but so far, IN THIS THREAD, the vast majority of complainers are people who haven't driven stalkless. And the majority of people who have said it's simple and quick to get used to.

You parrot Elon quite well.
1. Do you see the savings from removing the stalks? (Hint: the answer is ‘no.’)
2. When was the last time you had a turn signal stalk go bad? In all of the cars I’ve driven in the last 40 years it’s happened exactly 0 time. I asked my parents - in all the cars they’ve driven over 70 years the answer was 0. The failure rate for these is vanishingly small meaning any possible benefit is also vanishingly small.

(I’d also point out that removing the stalk simply moves the switches from the stalk to the wheel so there are still switches to break, just in a different position)

So in the end, net benefit to the consumer? $0.00

 

[Destiny1701]

You parrot Elon quite well.
1. Do you see the savings from removing the stalks? (Hint: the answer is ‘no.’)
2. When was the last time you had a turn signal stalk go bad? In all of the cars I’ve driven in the last 40 years it’s happened exactly 0 time. I asked my parents - in all the cars they’ve driven over 70 years the answer was 0. The failure rate for these is vanishingly small meaning any possible benefit is also vanishingly small.

(I’d also point out that removing the stalk simply moves the switches from the stalk to the wheel so there are still switches to break, just in a different position)

So in the end, net benefit to the consumer? $0.00

This

It’s basically just Elon’s thought pattern on sexiness factor. Nothing to do with function or advantage to consumer.

There must be some cost savings in manuf.

 

[Kevy Baby]

You parrot Elon quite well.
1. Do you see the savings from removing the stalks? (Hint: the answer is ‘no.’)
2. When was the last time you had a turn signal stalk go bad? In all of the cars I’ve driven in the last 40 years it’s happened exactly 0 time. I asked my parents - in all the cars they’ve driven over 70 years the answer was 0. The failure rate for these is vanishingly small meaning any possible benefit is also vanishingly small.

(I’d also point out that removing the stalk simply moves the switches from the stalk to the wheel so there are still switches to break, just in a different position)

So in the end, net benefit to the consumer? $0.00

Well, I don't listen to Elon, so I am certainly not "parroting" him - just using basic logic.

I'm glad you have done your exhaustive research to support the "turn signal stalks never go bad" theory. They are a moving part and they are susceptible to breakage. Is the likelihood high? Not really. But it is there.

And you're a fool if you think cost savings are not passed on to the customer. No, they aren't knocking $100 off the sticker price because of this: it contributes a cumulative overall cost reduction. A couple of bucks here and another couple there, and pretty soon this adds up to significant savings in manufacturing, which keeps the cost of the car down - it is basic manufacturing principles.

 

[3sr+buyer]

1. Do you see the savings from removing the stalks? (Hint: the answer is ‘no.’)
2. When was the last time you had a turn signal stalk go bad? In all of the cars I’ve driven in the last 40 years it’s happened exactly 0 time.

I have a hard time imagining much savings from stalk removal, since buttons do have to be added to replace the functions.

The only stalk failures I recall were on old air cooled VWs, where, the turn signal self cancel tends to fail, so you need to turn off the signal manually after completing the turn. But I have not seen other stalk failures, even on an extremely unreliable late 1970s car.

 

[sleepydoc]

Well, I don't listen to Elon, so I am certainly not "parroting" him - just using basic logic.

I'm glad you have done your exhaustive research to support the "turn signal stalks never go bad" theory. They are a moving part and they are susceptible to breakage. Is the likelihood high? Not really. But it is there.

And you're a fool if you think cost savings are not passed on to the customer. No, they aren't knocking $100 off the sticker price because of this: it contributes a cumulative overall cost reduction. A couple of bucks here and another couple there, and pretty soon this adds up to significant savings in manufacturing, which keeps the cost of the car down - it is basic manufacturing principles.

Ok, so you admit that reliability is not a notable benefit.

You're a fool if you really expect to see anything from these. What happens is the manufacturers whittle things down, saving a few cent here and there, eventually saving $100 per car. Then then keep the price the same (because nobody cares whether the car is $49,999 or $49,899. Instead they pocket the difference and pay it in bonuses to the executives who instructed the engineers to cut the parts. (oh, and don't forget the development costs to get rid of the parts.) This is basic business principles.

 

[dusty22]

When was the last time you had a turn signal stalk go bad? In all of the cars I’ve driven in the last 40 years it’s happened exactly 0 time. I asked my parents - in all the cars they’ve driven over 70 years the answer was 0. The failure rate for these is vanishingly small

I had a stalk actually break off and hang from the wiring on an older Ford Taurus. Mechanic said it was a Chinese made, after market replacement part and replaced it with a Ford part that was made in Mexico.

 

[whitex]

I'm driving now for a bit more than 1 week with my new M3, and honestly, I do not miss the stalks at all !

The first day, you are aware of being stalkless, so you pay extra attention to learn using them. The second day was maybe the worst, you tend to slip back to an old habit as you just aren't as attentive as the first day. But as of the 3rd day, it has become a habit of using the buttons and honestly, the driving experience is as good as before with stalks.

Side note: for roundabouts, the time to get used to stalkless driving will take much more time, but again, I believe it will just be a matter of time to build in the habit to know exactly where the button will be.

Having to learn and get used to a whole new way of operating car just to save a few bucks on mechanical stalks. It doesn't sound worth it. I'm sure you could eventually get used to two joysticks instead of steering wheel plus pedals - even cheaper to produce, and it would even give you new abilities like 0 turning radius (tank style turns), but who would want to. Tesla stopped doing weekend test drives so one could have 3 days to get used to the typical usecase, and stopped offering money-back-guarantee so customers who don't get used to it in 7 days could return the car no questions asked. This means Tesla will lose customers with their cost saving on controls. My wife really wanted another Tesla (she had 2 Model S'es up to that point), but one test drive in a Model X with the yoke made her change her mind. I didn't buy (or lease) a Plaid too primarily because of the stalkless yoke, though at that time Tesla was not offering test drives at all, so Elon only wanted customers with blind faith that he knows better - so obviously not me (I also had 2 Model S'es like my wife, and also switched brands after the yoke). Maybe if Tesla gave us the cars for 3 days, or offered 7 day money back guarantee, things would have turned out differently, but then again, such extended test drives must cost more than the cost of the mechanical stalk.

 

[whitex]

I had a stalk actually break off and hang from the wiring on an older Ford Taurus. Mechanic said it was a Chinese made, after market replacement part and replaced it with a Ford part that was made in Mexico.

There was a Model Y with a glass roof that flew off on the drive from the delivery to the customers home. Unlikely things happen, this doesn't mean Model Y roofs are unreliable and fly off often.

 

[sleepydoc]

It doesn't sound worth it. I'm sure you could eventually get used to two joysticks instead of steering wheel plus pedals - even cheaper to produce, and it would even give you new abilities like 0 turning radius (tank style turns), but who would want to.

But then Tesla could say it’s like a fighter jet! Or like your old Atari 2600…

Having to learn and get used to a whole new way of operating car just to save a few bucks on mechanical stalks. Tesla stopped doing weekend test drives so one could have 3 days to get used to the typical usecase, and stopped offering money-back-guarantee so customers who don't get used to it in 7 days could return the car no questions asked. This means Tesla will lose customers with their cost saving on controls. My wife really wanted another Tesla (she had 2 Model S'es up to that point), but one test drive in a Model X with the yoke made her change her mind. I didn't buy (or lease) a Plaid too primarily because of the stalkless yoke, though at that time Tesla was not offering test drives at all, so Elon only wanted customers with blind faith that he knows better - so obviously not me (I also had 2 Model S'es like my wife, and also switched brands after the yoke). Maybe if Tesla gave us the cars for 3 days, or offered 7 day money back guarantee, things would have turned out differently, but then again, such extended test drives must cost more than the cost of the mechanical stalk.

This, 100%
The yoke was a horrible business decision. There was nobody who would refuse to buy a tesla that had a wheel but there were large numbers of people who refused to buy one with a yoke. So they had a gimmicky fundamental control whose only advantage was to compensate for a poor design on Tesla’s part that was costing them sales. No wonder they finally got smart and brought the wheel back. (Interestingly, the yoke actually costs $1000 more now - can we infer that it costs more to produce?)

Now the stalks are a similar decision. The same as with the yoke, there is no one that would refuse to buy a car with stalks but there are plenty of people who will refuse to buy a car without them. As we’ve discussed, reliability is a non-issue, unless you mindlessly repeat whatever Elon says. The cost is trivial as well and one also needs to remember that removing the stalks necessitates adding several buttons on the wheel, as well as gear shift buttons on the ceiling, increasing costs (and creating horrible reliability issues because those parts are going to fail!) The gear shift buttons in particular replace one sensor with 3 and require wiring to be run all the way up to the ceiling to accommodate them. As I think about it, I wouldn’t be surprised if the final design costs more.

Another issue with the gear shifting - it’s highly dependent on software to work properly. What’s Tesla’s record been on bug-free software?

In the end we have a highly questionable interface design decision with no clear benefit and several clear drawbacks. Hmmm….

 

[stopcrazypp]

Ok, so you admit that reliability is not a notable benefit.

You're a fool if you really expect to see anything from these. What happens is the manufacturers whittle things down, saving a few cent here and there, eventually saving $100 per car. Then then keep the price the same (because nobody cares whether the car is $49,999 or $49,899. Instead they pocket the difference and pay it in bonuses to the executives who instructed the engineers to cut the parts. (oh, and don't forget the development costs to get rid of the parts.) This is basic business principles.

Except Tesla had been doing the opposite, they have done massive price cuts to the great complaint of existing owners (plenty of threads here). This is made possible by moves like this that reduce costs. A lot existing owners would rather they keep the car the same price or set the price higher and higher, but that's not what's happening.