New renderings of storage space and 2nd row seats! (9/15)

[smac]

The rear edge of the front door in the boxes image looks odd. It's almost as if the door was just sawed off at the desired length and left unfinished. Or am I confused about what I'm looking at?

Nope I see the same thing. Even if the door doesn't come to a thin edge like the Model S (which might not be possible as the "handle" comes right to the edge of the door), you'd at least expect a plastic moulding to finish off that edge.

Saying that this is all just a CGI rendering so may not be 100% perfect.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I just came up with one way to mitigate the lack of folding 2nd row seats. One solution is to move one of the side seats all the way back, while you move the middle seat all the way forward. That should allow you to use the entire diagonal behind the first row, where a ~2.5 meter (98") long object can lie across the 2nd row seat.

One downside is that the object will be lying on top of the leather in the 2nd row, so damage is possible.

 

[Auzie]

I can only point out that from a statistical viewpoint, the poll means NOTHING and is worse than no data at all. You won't find a sizeable number of people who understand statistics who will disagree with that. I can't change what you believe, but would suggest you spend some time taking a look at the principles of statistics.

In the meantime, something that might provide some more of life's insights to those who believe the poll has any statistical value whatsoever:
Spurious Correlations

+1

175 reservation holders have responded to that poll, or about 0.65% of reservation holders. If 0.65% of the worlds population had responded to a poll about favourite colour, or 47 million people, I would accept that as an indicator as well.

The only meaningful information or indication that the poll provides is limited to information about 175 reservation holders that responded to the poll.
This sample is far too small and unrepresentative of the X target market. For these reasons, it does not provide any indication whatsoever of the larger population of potential X customers.



It is unfortunate that some released information about X is not what some reservation holders expected. There was a lot of anticipation of a happy event and now there seems to be a disappointment after such a long wait for some people. A very unfortunate outcome for some customers.

Some design preferences win over others, for various reasons (safety, popularity, appeal, cost, complexity, Elon's choice, etc). The pool of customers who might be unhappy with some car details relevant to them can only grow as the population of Tesla's customer's grows and becomes more diverse. It becomes harder to cater for all customer's preferences.

This problem is due to taking orders (deposits) for unseen and undeveloped products. This way of doing business was/is unavoidable for Tesla.

I hope that most reservation holders will like and enjoy their car.

 

[bonnie]

The same applies to me - even the most basic of statistics courses will tell you that polls predicated on bad data analysis is worse than no data at all. From Essentials of Statistics, 5th ed., by Triola:

* Sampling Method: With voluntary response samples (self-selected samples), we can draw valid conclusions only about the specific group of people who chose to participate; nevertheless, such samples are often incorrectly used to assert or imply conclusions about a larger population. From a statistical viewpoint, such a sample is fundamentally flawed and should not be used for making general statements about a larger population.

* Small Samples: Conclusions should not be based on samples that are far too small.

* Loaded Questions: If survey questions are not worded carefully, the results of a study can be misleading.

* Order of Questions: Sometimes survey questions are unintentionally loaded by such factors as the order of the items being considered.

And yes, it also drives me nuts when improper application of statistics is made; it has been implied that the poll here reflects the larger population of owners. Even after it was pointed out, people are still saying "yes, but can't you see that 57% vs. 26%?!!!?!!" So yes, we know that 57% of people who self-selected themselves to respond are vs. the 26% of people who self-selected themselves to respond.

That's like posting a poll on TMC... "what's your favorite color?"... list only 4 options, then suddenly declare that because 75% of the 100 people who responded selected blue, that 3/4ths of the world prefers blue. It is fundamentally flawed, and cannot be used as any evidence beyond the fact that people who are most passionate about this issue on TMC have voted. There's no guarantee there aren't ghost accounts or anti-Tesla accounts trying to make Tesla look bad, there's no evidence that it's a fair sample of potential Model X buyers, and there's no evidence that the options presented are properly selected and discrete.

So you're saying that if you were Tesla & saw that poll, you'd ignore it because of all the flaws?

I wouldn't. I'd never say it was accurate, for reasons you state. But I would not ignore it. Directionally, it would concern me.

- - - Updated - - -

It seems thus far that only employees, the buyers and maybe some special guests can attend. I wouldn't get my hopes up.

There is no event to attend.

 

[Yggdrasill]

There is no event to attend.

Depends on how you define "event". My statement is accurate, even if the only people who attend the handover is one buyer and one delivery specialist. (But I think it will be more eventy than that.)

 

[hpham007]

Not all SUVs are of same length, and there are some with folding seats and less room than some others without folding seats.

Can you name one SUV where the seats do not fold?

 

[NigelM]

Can you name one SUV where the seats do not fold?

Pham, I am curious why you only ever post negative comments but don't have a reservation yourself (or even a Model S). I'm sure your motives are altruistic but why would you be so bothered about this?

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Pham, I am curious why you only ever post negative comments but don't have a reservation yourself (or even a Model S). I'm sure your motives are altruistic but why would you be so bothered about this?

There are shareholders who have significant concerns. I don't know if this applies to Pham.

 

[dirkhh]

Statistics in forums are meaningless as a way to capture the overall population or target audience. They do however give you an insight into the sentiment of some interested people. Can you extrapolate to the total target audience? Of course not. Can you simply ignore the data that are presented? I'd consider that unwise. The numbers are a reflection of a certain subset of your target audience. A subset that is a) highly engaged and b) highly vocal. For a company that does no marketing (well, no traditional marketing) and repeatedly boasts how its owners are their best sales force and currently is running (was running?) a competition to refer cars, ignoring these numbers is outright foolish.

But I go back what I wrote a hundred posts or so ago. This boils down to a loss of trust. And it's completely irrelevant what the people who deny this think. It's irrelevant how other cars look, what their features are.
I am certain that the Model X will be a great car and will compare well overall to other cars in its class.
I am equally certain that as it stands Tesla will damage their reputation with their most vocal and loyal supporters.
And I am especially certain that the parties that are interested in seeing Tesla fail (short sellers but also the traditional car makers) will latch onto this and turn it into news.
If I were an exec at Audi, I'd be preparing the car magazines and websites for an high end SUV/CUV comparison. And make sure that those comparisons focu on the 'U' part.

 

[MrBoylan]

Supercar accelerations in supersized family cars result in Tesla grins, folding seats do not. Gull wing doors result in talk, folding seats do not.

FALCON WING DOORS!

But I think this puts things in perspective nicely. I admit to being a little disappointed seeing the non-standard middle seats, and the inability to make a fully flat bed from front to rear, but I'm willing to give Tesla/EM the benefit of the doubt that these seats will be both comfortable and highly functional.

I think we're all just used to the way that regular companies do it that we can't imagine that this design might actually be better/more functional in practice. One thing that bugs us in our current Highlander is that it's impossible to move from 2nd to third row without opening the doors or doing a risky climb-over maneuver. If the 2nd row seats are independently operable, then maybe we can move the middle of the 3 seats forward enough to allow the passengers in the second row to pass back or to at least interact in some way with the passengers in the 3rd row.

And if those seats somehow rotate while in motion so the 2nd row passengers face the 3rd row passengers, then we have an all new paradigm, from which others will now be judged. And yes, I've seen the pics of the old minivan that had rear-facing middle seats, but this isn't common. I'm not saying these seats will do that (though I hope they do), but I'm saying there is still so much we don't know about how the seats do work, that it's probably a good idea to keep an open mind until the facts are revealed. We know what they don't do... but what do they do? (other than make milkshakes).

 

[rosinchard]

View attachment 94219

In this photo with the bike, it looks to me like the 2nd row seats are in their normal position (i.e. could have people sitting in them).

Is that everyone else's interpretation?

 

[Yggdrasill]

In this photo with the bike, it looks to me like the 2nd row seats are in their normal position (i.e. could have people sitting in them).

Is that everyone else's interpretation?

I can't speak for everyone, but that's my interpretation. I'm estimating 130-140 cm (51-55") cargo space with the 2nd row in use, and 180 cm (~71") with the 2nd row pushed all the way forward.

 

[MrBoylan]

A question to those who think the second row isn't a big deal - What do you think will happen when Consumer Reports, Edmunds, Car and Driver, etc., do a detailed review of the vehicle and compare it to luxury SUVs from other manufacturers? They will say: Model X is superior in acceleration and handling, efficient, great for hauling 7 people. However, doors prevent use of a roof rack, lack of storage and inability to haul large objects because the second row doesn't fold flat like it does in all other vehicles in its class, etc. The negatives will definitely affect sales among people who have not yet drunk the Tesla kool-aid, and are already worried about "long charging times, limited range," etc....

I don't know... the design and operation of the Falcon Wing Doors is so different and unusual I think it will lead to more sales, not less. Personally, Model X had me at "Falcon Wing Doors." And I think with the frunk, middle row slid forward and trailer mounted luggage racks, the Model X isn't going to have any issue with storage. Also, it's possible that the FW doors have a setting to stay fixed at the top and only open outwards at the hinge. This would allow temporary storage on the top of the car and still allow passengers to get in and out of the car (albeit with the requirement of more space on the sides). I'm not saying this is likely, but it is a possibility.

If Tesla (EM/FVH/JBS) behaved like other auto-makers, and just copied existing designs feature-by-feature, they wouldn't be as successful as they have been (and hopefully, will continue to be). Like Apple, they "think different" and that's what leads to real innovation.

 

[CarlK]

A question to those who think the second row isn't a big deal - What do you think will happen when Consumer Reports, Edmunds, Car and Driver, etc., do a detailed review of the vehicle and compare it to luxury SUVs from other manufacturers? They will say: Model X is superior in acceleration and handling, efficient, great for hauling 7 people. However, doors prevent use of a roof rack, lack of storage and inability to haul large objects because the second row doesn't fold flat like it does in all other vehicles in its class, etc. The negatives will definitely affect sales among people who have not yet drunk the Tesla kool-aid, and are already worried about "long charging times, limited range," etc....

Regarding the poll - This is a poll on a Tesla forum taken by the most loyal Tesla followers. If a significant percentage of these people will not buy the vehicle because the second row doesn't fold, what do you think will happen when an EV skeptic is cross shopping with ICE vehicles. If anything, I think the poll here paints a more positive picture than what you will get among real world buyers, and that is bad news for Tesla, because many of us will accept almost anything now in order to not drive another ICE vehicle.

Cut this nonsense off will you? Are you talking about Consumer Reports doing review on the car from a few pictures now? Why don't you go take a good night's sleep, no several good night's sleep and wait for 9/29 to see how the car is like?

 

[Skotty]

Honestly, I'm starting to feel bad for Elon and Tesla. In the past, they seemed really proud of what they were trying to do with the seats, and now so many people are calling the car crap because it appears they don't fold, when we don't even know the final specs yet.

 

[hpham007]

If Tesla (EM/FVH/JBS) behaved like other auto-makers, and just copied existing designs feature-by-feature, they wouldn't be as successful as they have been (and hopefully, will continue to be). Like Apple, they "think different" and that's what leads to real innovation.

I 100% agree with you except Tesla already did that with an all-electric drive train with the longest range vs any other car maker. Where they are screwing up is when they take proven components and try too hard to make themselves different from the others. Cars while not biological evolve just like any other species. Proven, cost effective, reliable solutions stay while bad ideas die off. There is a reason why no other car manufacturer uses gullwing/falcon doors in mass quantities. It’s a bad idea with many compromises and a solution to non-existent problems.

 

[MrBoylan]

There is a reason why no other car manufacturer uses gullwing/falcon doors in mass quantities.

Yes, because they (traditional auto makers) have been too backward-thinking to take a risk on something new. Or, more likely, they didn't think of it.

It’s a bad idea with many compromises and a solution to non-existent problems.

Disagree.

 

[Skotty]

I 100% agree with you except Tesla already did that with an all-electric drive train with the longest range vs any other car maker. Where they are screwing up is when they take proven components and try too hard to make themselves different from the others. Cars while not biological evolve just like any other species. Proven, cost effective, reliable solutions stay while bad ideas die off. There is a reason why no other car manufacturer uses gullwing/falcon doors in mass quantities. It’s a bad idea with many compromises and a solution to non-existent problems.

An ICE is a proven component, cost effective, and reliable. It's largely why other auto makers are not building EVs.

 

[GaryREM]

That is a point I've visualized for a while ... thinking how they may believe this is better than folding flat because you can put tall things there.

[update: Note sure why they didn't hang that front wheel over the edge of the 3rd seat. Looks like there is 1.5' there.]


Image: http://i.imgur.com/017nBBA.jpg
View attachment 94237

Has anyone commented about the fact that the three seats are separate, even showing separate supports (at least on the right). Could it be that the center seat actually folds down (you would even have room for the headrest without a front seat back)?

 

[scaesare]

(disclaimer: I have neither a reservation nor immediate plans to buy an X. I'm a MS owner interested in Tesla's ongoing success in the market, and rather fascinated by thier/Elon's philosophy)

What this issue has me wondering about (well,one of them, anyway), is this:

What feature of the seats as designed is so compelling that it made making them non-foldable was a worthy tradefoff?

Safety? Given the examples of other vehicles with seat-mounted shoulder belts on both removable and foldable seats, that doesn't seem to be an insurmountable issue.

Comfort? The issue of sufficient padding was mentioned above, however I've sat in plenty of comfortable folding seats, and several of the previous pictures in the thread have shown up-scale folding seats that appear well apportioned in that regard. This would seem an odd tradeoff.

Features? Is it impossible to allow for cooled/heated seats and have them fold? Some power adjustment? Again it doesn't seem insurmountable obstacle and a dubious tradeoff.

Styling? Elon has mentioned the "thing of beauty" aspect of them... but it appears that the context was within the engineering challenges that made the seats more difficult than that FW doors. I don't expect that designing a beautiful seat with no tricks up it's sleeve other than folding should be that significant an engineering challenge.

So... it appears that it's an attractive seat on a cool pedestal that tilts. Any other features mentioned above (cooling, adjustable, etc...) wouldn't seem to be an engineering challange that hasn't already been largely solved elsewhere.

​I wonder what we are missing... if anything?